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De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

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Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#311

Post by josephg »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #272
josephg wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one asked for this. What people want is a way to run amazon.com (and gmail and slack and so on), on any of their devices, securely, and without the fuss of installing anything. Ideally the first-time use of amazon.com should involve nothing more than typing "amazon" and hitting enter. It should to show content almost instantly. Satisfying that user need doesn't require a web browser. If OS vendors provided a way…

> What people want is a way to run amazon.com (and gmail and slack and so on) Guess what, both GMail and Slack have video calls. They use WebRTC. The browser has to support it. So the WebRTC code is a part of it. > Ideally the first-time use of amazon.com should involve nothing more than typing "amazon" and hitting enter. It should to show content almost instantly. And it does. Open an incognito tab, type amazon.com,…

> Open an incognito tab, type amazon.com, it's pretty crazy how fast it loads, with all the images.

Yes; that's my point. That's the bar native apps need to reach to be competitive with the web.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#312

Post by dagmx »

deadly_syn wrote: post #298
dagmx wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Direct storage doesn’t address the majority of these concerns though. It only means the CPU doesn’t need to load data first to shuffle it over, but it doesn’t help if the CPU does need to access said data or schedule it. It’s largely applicable mainly to games where resource access is known ahead of time.

Wouldnt a desktop interface also be a predefined set of resources? Usually with far less visual flare too.

Only if you’re dealing with just the desktop environment and don’t allow the user to load applications. Or if those apps also didn’t allow dynamicism of any kind, like loading images from a website

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#313

Post by wslh »

mixedCase wrote: post #16
abraxas wrote: post #6

Let’s pause for a bit and dwell on the absurd amount of RAM it takes to run it even after this exercise. Anyone here remember when QNX shipped a demo in 2000 with a kernel, GUI, web browser and an email client on a single 3.5” floppy? The memory footprint was also a few megabytes. I’m not saying we should be staying within some miserly arbitrary constraints, but my goodness something that draws UI and manages process…

Hasn't it, though? HDR, fluid animations, monstrous resolutions, 3D everything, accessibility, fancy APIs for easier development allowing for more features, support for large amounts of devices, backwards compatibility, browsers are almost unrecognizable in featureset to the point they resemble an OS unto themselves, email clients have stayed mostly the same at least except for the part that they also ship a browser…

Please don't miss the malware within the OS itself: license services for software such as Microsoft Office and Adobe, and other applications without enough resource bounds.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#314

Post by vbernat »

hedora wrote: post #140

I had a similar experience with GrapheneOS on my pixel 6 pro. It got multi-day battery life out of the box, which is far in excess of what Google advertises for that hardware. Once I installed google play services (which have zero end-user benefit, other than enabling compatibility with apps that have bundled google spyware), battery life more than halved, bringing it in line with what Google claims. I suspect anti-t…

Cloud messaging comes with Google Play Services. That alone could explain the battery difference.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#315

Post by user3939382 »

grishka wrote: post #31
mixedCase wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't it, though? HDR, fluid animations, monstrous resolutions, 3D everything, accessibility, fancy APIs for easier development allowing for more features, support for large amounts of devices, backwards compatibility, browsers are almost unrecognizable in featureset to the point they resemble an OS unto themselves, email clients have stayed mostly the same at least except for the part that they also ship a browser…

> HDR, fluid animations, monstrous resolutions That's the job of the GPU driver, mostly. > 3D everything That's the desktop compositor. Windows 7 already had one and ran on 1 GB of RAM. > accessibility Not everyone needs it, so it should be an optional installable component for those who do. > fancy APIs for easier development allowing for more features That still use win32 under the hood. Again, .net has existed for…

> they should again become the hypertext document viewers they were meant to be

There is a small resurgence of the gopher protocol that I believe is rooted in this sentiment.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#316

Post by pjerem »

josephg wrote: post #229
Andrex wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > browsers are almost unrecognizable in featureset to the point they resemble an OS unto themselves > No one asked for this. My personal opinion is that everything app-like about browsers needs to be undone, yesterday, and they should again become the hypertext document viewers they were meant to be. Even JS is too much, but I guess it does have to stay. People did ask for this, because it made them a lot of money.…

> No one asked for this. What people want is a way to run amazon.com (and gmail and slack and so on), on any of their devices, securely, and without the fuss of installing anything. Ideally the first-time use of amazon.com should involve nothing more than typing "amazon" and hitting enter. It should to show content almost instantly. Satisfying that user need doesn't require a web browser. If OS vendors provided a way…

While I agree with you, I don’t think the people really wanted this. I mean, life wasn’t miserable when web apps didn’t existed.

We could have lived in an alternative universe where we succeeded to teach people the basics of how to use the computer as a powerful tool for themselves.

Instead, corporations rushed to make most of the things super easy to make billions on the way.

I’d even say that this wasn’t really a problem until they realized that closed computers allowed them more control and more money.

So yeah, now we are stuck with web apps on closed systems and most people are happy with it, that’s true.

And, as the time passes, we are loosing the universal access to "the computer". Instead of a great tool for enabling power to the people, it’s being transformed to a prison to control what the people can do, see and even think.

ps : When I say "computer" I include PC, phones, tablets, voice assistants … everything with a processor running arbitrary programs.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#317

Post by prmoustache »

cratermoon wrote: post #75
djur wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not everyone needs [accessibility], so it should be an additional installable component for those who do. The UI has to be designed from the ground up to support accessibility.

I'd also like to add that accessibility is not a binary that's either on or off. Parent comment might be thinking of features for people with high disability ratings, but eventually everyone has some level of disability. Some even start of life with one: color blindness, vision impairment. Most people have progressive near vision loss (presbyopia) as they age. Also, disability may not be permanent. I recently underwe…

And I'll had you want it available on the installer already. Having said that you canct explain all that bloat with accessibility.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#318

Post by prmoustache »

userbinator wrote: post #268
ElectricalUnion wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows 95 can't even stay up for more that 49.7 days before crashing all by itself.

Neither can Windows 10 on default settings, for more than around a month, before force-rebooting all by itself and losing all your work.

Nobody loses his work on a reboot in 2023.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#319

Post by prmoustache »

mixedCase wrote: post #172
yobbo wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HDR, fluid animations, monstrous resolutions, 3D everything May I remind of https://www.enlightenment.org/ 20 years ago, there were "live cds" that could do most of what you mention, at maybe 512 MB ram.

I ran e16 and then e17 as my main desktop back in the day for a good while. I'm sorry but what we had back then was nowhere even near what I'm talking about. It definitely was pretty for the day, though.

What do we have today that we didn't have back them in term of bare desktop support?

I mean we have larger resolution support amd scaling for hidpi, better/faster indexation, better touchpad support. Can you name anything else? Localization hasn't progressed that much, I remember already being able to select some barely spoken dialects on linux 20y ago?

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#320

Post by josephg »

vbezhenar wrote: post #278
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years ago is pushing it a bit. But 12 years ago, in 2008, I used a computer with 4GB of RAM in order to: • Read the news • Post on social media • Make video calls • Use instant messaging • Create and edit word documents/presentations/spreadsheets Today I use my computer for all of those same things... and yet they all require drastically more memory (and CPU, GPU, etc). What happened, and how does this benefit con…

You can use computer with 4 GB of ram today for all things you've mentioned. It might swap here and there and not be as snappy, but generally it'll work. I think that Apple just recently stopped to sell 4 GB computers. And their phones from the last year sells with 4 GB RAM while being perfectly able to do all the things you've mentioned as well.

Yeah, I agree - I don't think ram is usually the problem.

I used to have a 2016 dual core macbook pro with integrated graphics and 8gb of RAM or something. The machine was great when I got it, but 18 months ago it was limping along and I finally decided to get rid of it.

And it wasn't any 3rd party apps that killed the machine. Every time the machine started up, iphotoanalysisd or some random spotlight service or something would be eating all my CPU. It was always a 1st party Apple app which was making it slow. And the graphics felt laggy. Just moving windows around felt bad a lot of the time, even when I didn't have anything open. Xcode would sometimes lag the machine so much that it would drop keystrokes while I was typing. I had RAM to spare - it was a CPU problem.

In the process of wiping the machine, I booted into Recovery mode and it booted the 2016 recovery image of macos. Holy smokes - the graphics were all wicked fast again! I spent a couple minutes just moving windows around the screen in recovery mode marvelling at how fast it felt.

I wonder if reverting to an old version of macos would have fixed my problems. As far as I can tell, this was all Apple's fault. They piled up macos with so much crap that their own computers couldn't cope with the weight. I also wonder if they broke the intel graphics drivers in some point release somewhere along the way, or they started relying on GPU features that Intel's driver only had software emulation for.

Modern macos still has all that crap - the efficiency cores in my M1 laptop are constantly spinning up for some ridiculous Apple service or something. But at least now that still leaves me with 8 P-cores for my actual work. Its ridiculous.

I bet linux would have worked great on that old laptop. I wish I tried it before turfing the machine.

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