U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#311

Post by calderknight » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 1:52 AM UTC

strulovich wrote: post #211

sabujp wrote: post #146

Spy balloon cost : $3k - $50k , you can even buy them on alibaba and some other sites: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-hot-sale-surveillance-balloon-with_60454941082.html https://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/jennerjiang/product-list/catalog-1.html?view=0 Cost to shoot down balloon with F22 $400k for the AIM-9X, ~$85k for 1 hour of flight time, so ~$400 - $500k to shoot down one balloon that cost < $50k

This sort of calculations are slightly silly. F22s take off for training flights all the time, having one training flight switch to operational does not affect the cost. It’s similar for using missiles. The opportunity to shoot a real one at a real target is good training. Those things costs this money perhaps, but it’s not a useful way to think of it this way for such a case.

I think the implication is not that the cost in this specific case was very high. I think the point was that there is an assymetry in cost. So, if someone wanted to have balloons over the USA, it would be much cheaper for them to try than it would be for the USA to stop them. By the time someone starts sending 1000's of balloons, the costs to destroy them may add up.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#312

Post by sandworm101 » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 1:52 AM UTC

SantalBlush wrote: post #304

sandworm101 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Most every one of those invasions was preceded by international diplomacy and coalition building. China/Russia dont care for the UN or building consensus with allies. They are willing to just go on the word of a supreme leader. We might not like the outcomes, but the US does accept that the international stage is governed by rules. That is why a country like canada feels no threat from the US wheras every countr…

>China/Russia dont care for the UN or building consensus with allies. The US has made the same unilateral invasions that Russia has, and without approval of the UN. Almost everything you've said here is false.

In the last 100 years, Which US invasions were unilateral? Even panama is a stretch given the diplomatic history prior re the cannal. There has been nothing like crimea/ukraine.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#313

Post by rhaway84773 » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 1:53 AM UTC

james4k wrote: post #276

Salgat wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every major country has their faults, but the US definitely has a larger surface area for these faults as the only superpower left. On the other hand, as the only superpower left, we're fortunate the US exists as a stabilizing factor for world peace, rather than colonizing the rest of the world like every superpower before it.

Colonialism still exists in a sense, but explicit force became unnecessary with the creation of the IMF and loan terms that allow for American and European firms to both extract resources and keep all the profits.

No one is forcing any country to take an IMF loan.

And if you think the IMF loans are so onerous, consider why Pakistan, which has allies in both China and Saudi Arabia, both of whom have lent it money in recent years, is going begging to the IMF instead.

And if the IMF is a tool of colonialism, why it is refusing to give money to Pakistan unless it agrees to measures such as the current administration not immediately using that money to fund a subsidy in oil prices right before an election. As opposed to the Saudis and Chinese who impose interest rates in the low 30%s, and acquire ownership of land and infrastructure when those payments are inevitably not made.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#314

Post by darkwraithcov » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 1:53 AM UTC

themodelplumber wrote: post #168

amelius wrote: post #114

So they waited until the balloon was over sea. This raises the question: why didn't the military see it coming and destroy it before it crossed the border?

I wonder...is there any value to: - IDing components, maybe even using some x-ray tech like US satellites have - Developing an idea of what this thing vacuums up, informationally - Switching our monitoring posture to also vacuuming up the same as it travels along, as if we are co-spying on our own stuff - Using the information product to help harden any sensitive information that was vacuumed, for counter-intel purpo…

If its anything like the cold war where we did this with the Russkies (and prior to that, The Nazis) it makes sense to me it would have significant electronic warfare value.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#315

Post by blamazon » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 1:54 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #248

blamazon wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US state apparatus did not make a big deal of this. The media and the public did, and the US state apparatus answered to the media and the public, as is their duty.

> The US state apparatus did not make a big deal of this. The majority leadershio of the House are not “state apparatus”? Because they were the main source fanning a big deal out of it.

I mean, no political commentary intended, but I don't really see the present house as like, well represented at the helm of the government? It seems like the state apparatus is keeping them at arms length from power, yes, due to the internal turmoil that has been ongoing for some time. Thus I basically mentally lump them in with "media and public."

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#316

Post by cdot2 » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 1:55 AM UTC

downvotetruth wrote: post #264

cdot2 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you go about collect it from 65,000 feet?

Should have been pierced to start deflating over the Pacific when it entered the U.S. air defense zone north of the Aleutian Islands on Jan. 28: https://apnews.com/article/politics-united-states-government... . See metal hook at the end of a rope from a helicopter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C6_pdSedow

It sounds like it wasnt detected until after it was already over the US and they shot it down over ~47ft deep water so it can be recovered pretty easily

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#317

Post by mlindner » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 1:55 AM UTC

dgoldstein0 wrote: post #298

hfbff wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your point of view, I can see how China is bad and the USA is good. But ask someone whose country got invaded by the USA or whose bloody dictator got supported by the USA. Over here in Latinamerica we still remember the horrible things that the USA did. It seems to me (but I could have a false perception) that China is a horrible bully in their corner of the world (nine dash line and, of course their will to inv…

The US has been around as a modern country longer than China - we have more than a century on them; China started the 20th century divided with several parts of itself colonized. China fought a civil war between the dominant Republic abd the communists, and might have been able to win if not for the Japanese invasion; post war, they didn't have the ability anymore to fight off Mao's revolution. In other words the cur…

Also note that China's killed way more people in it's short history than the US did through it's entire 240 year history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine Tens of millions of dead in a short few years.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#318

Post by mise_en_place » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 1:55 AM UTC

pxc wrote: post #102

I am so tired of China being used to stoke American jingoism, of politicians making a contest of who is really 'tough on China' and, most horrifyingly, of seeing other USians online practically salivate as they fantasize about a war with China. It's some cold war boogieman horseshit. And it's depressing to watch here on Hacker News, too, any comments that question the beating of those war drums go dead. Yesterday I h…

“The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.”

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#319

Post by albntomat0 » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 1:56 AM UTC

downvotetruth wrote: post #264

cdot2 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you go about collect it from 65,000 feet?

Should have been pierced to start deflating over the Pacific when it entered the U.S. air defense zone north of the Aleutian Islands on Jan. 28: https://apnews.com/article/politics-united-states-government... . See metal hook at the end of a rope from a helicopter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C6_pdSedow

Helicopters can’t fly to 65000 ft, due to the low air density.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#320

Post by jasmer » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 1:56 AM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #229

yohanshi wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a taiwanese who lurks on hacker news for many years but when I saw this post I had to make an account. You are dead wrong, China is an enemy of the free world, pure and simple. South Koreans and Ukrainians would agree with me here. Especially since China has declared no limit friendship with russia

As a South Korean, well, I don't like the Chinese government either, but these aggressive rhetorics don't help. My own country was under decades of pro-American dictators, all the while conveniently enjoying the membership of the Free World(TM): at that point, what does "free" even mean? I'm not saying America is the force of evil; it has done some nice things, and some other pretty horrible things. What I'm trying t…

It's 100% fair to question the geopolitical morality of any nation, especially the US, that's fine - but - as a South Korean, maybe you should consider for half a second the 50 000 Americans that died so that you would not be living as a slave under Kim Jong-un at this very moment.

Aside from that more 'humanist' element, there is the geopolitical reality that your sovereignty is still depends on the US.

After a war - nations usually have autocratic leaders who oversee a couple of decades of reconstruction, that is normal, and for them to be 'pro American' in the contex that America literally saved your entire nation from being slaves, is understandable.

It's a bit hard to read what you have written, imagine what would happen if the US/West dropped support for literally you, either now or decades ago? Where would you be? Happy unification under democracy? My gosh.

If you can't see that Xi is operating on a different moral level than most of the free world including S. Korea, then I have bad news for you.

Putin invaded Ukraine because he thought it wold be a cake walk.

The best thing we can do to 'avoid war' is to project strength, not ambiguity. Xi is not irrational, and if Taiwan is extremely well defended he won't invade.

In fact, it's relatively easy to deter China if other nations just have some basic political courage and a basic coherent strategy, then we can mostly live happily together.

(FYI I'm not American)