Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course they take money, but they hopefully also create real value. Providing liquidity a fraction of a microsecond faster than a competitor doesn't seem like real value to me, more like a cover story so that politics doesn't outright forbid high-speed quantitative trading.
Ahh classic. Obviously only these financial firms are the only ones not creating value. Those social media companies, start-ups people do for venture capital cash grabs, Web3, and addictive mobile games all create such value. EDIT: Okay, as the replies mentioned, OP did not make this argument. I still feel it’s valid, as a lot of big tech is neutral/worse for society, yet they are some of the loudest critics of low l…
The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
381–390 of 595 posts
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#382Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But I would have had to work in their office in Manhattan, be in by 8:30am every day and not leave until after 5 at a miniumum. That’s what you said originally, which reads as mostly normal work hours, plus maybe some overtime. If it was 16 hours a day, then please say so.
Read the rest of the comment? > I wouldn't be allowed to take my laptop home, so if I had a hard problem to solve, I'd have to stay in the office the whole time. So basically they expected us to never see our family nor collaborate with anyone.
The part you highlighted says you cannot work from home. That’s unrelated to the number of hours they expected you to work.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#384Earlier quoted context omitted.
By providing a service to customers, rather than finding ways to skim money off the top of markets?
If you ask most financial institutions they would say the service they provide is "liquidity" - they let you put your money in or take your money out at any time (in exchange for securities), as well as make decisions about where you want to allocate your capital based on your personal view of the world. This always fell a little flat to me (hence why I left the financial industry early in my career), but it's pretty…
I've honestly never understood this. Economics 101 teaches us that artificially manipulating supply (liquidity) is at direct odds with a free market's ability to do price discovery. If there is effectively infinite supply of any security (because all these high frequency firms are instantly hedging out the risk against their entire portfolio), why should anyone believe the NBBO? It's just a made up fantasy number at that point. It doesn't represent what the real security is worth because there are an infinite number of buyers and sellers willing to transact at any moment.
It really does feel like an enormous grift.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#385Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just to clarify, you used the word "abuse" several times to describe a job where you would have to work in office between 8:30 to 5 and pull (I'm safely assuming) half a million dollars a year?
8:30 to 5 was required, but also never working at home was required, so what I was trying to (poorly) say is that they basically expected you to live in the office and never see your family. I'll update accordingly. And the comp package I turned down was about $700k at the time, which was 10 years ago. Nowadays it would be a $1M+ job easy. But not seeing my family is not worth any amount of money to me, since there a…
Edit: saw your comment it was actually 80h/w onsite. That is abuse but hey the pay is great.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#386I've been writing high-performance C++ since the late '80s, and C a few years before that. I've got three choices; I can earn crap-tastic barely breaking six figures TC writing C++ for a run-of-the-mill application with reasonable work/life balance, or I can write C++ for a fintech earning $400k TC where I'm regularly pulling 70+ hour weeks and abused. Or I can get both bad pay and bad WLB making video games. Alterna…
That's my recipe now, after decades with C++ continuously looking to dump it, the moment I find something better. Dipping into C++ is mostly a backup plan: Numba, Numpy, various GPU targeting tools make it rarely necessary.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#387Heh. I'm pretty proficient in modern C++, and it is my favorite tool for a lot of things, but my PHP job pays way more than any C++ position available. Did an interview once for Senior C++ Engineer, embedded software in the medical device space. All went good, until the offer: $100k. Articles like this are nothing more than a desperate attempt at getting younger generations to learn said topic, so companies can pay t…
Same in video games. Many C++ engineers are learning JS in spare time to hopefully jump over to something that pays 4-5x. My personal experience also says that you spend much less time to build something profitable in JS and PHP than in C or C++. I don't think it's impossible that in another 10 or 20 years C and C++ engineering roles will become much better paid as legacy code maintainers' pool will dry up. Hopefully…
Maybe. I've made the jump from pure embedded (spent over 15 years in embedded) to backend (Go, with some rudimentary Java thrown into the mix). I literally doubled my salary in the space of 12 months.
In 20 years, are they going to hire my retired old ass to make their codebase live another 5 years longer, or will they simply bite the bullet and rewrite?
> Hopefully as a result of moving to languages like Rust - it would work out best for all developers.
It could happen, but I'm not that bullish on that happening:
1. No benefit - The very low-level embedded systems that toggles signals on wires doesn't gain much, if anything, from memory safety[1] - the end result of using Rust on a 2kb RAM/8MHz chip (atmega328, or xmega, or one of the stm32s, for example) is going to be using unsafe everywhere anyway.
2. High rampup - the majority of knowledge needed for low-level comes from EE, not CS. Already Rust has problems with adoption amongst CS people, who (in theory anyway) have all the requisite knowledge and motivation to climb the learning curve. I'd bet money that EEs won't even bother looking beyond the awful syntax.
3. Better alternatives - all those higher-level embedded projects such as RPi, Beaglebone, etc that run Linux have better alternatives for programming them than Rust. Most custom code written for the RPi is in Python, for example. Someone looking to develop on these boards is almost certainly better off using Go instead of Python, and Python instead of Rust.
So given that there's a) no benefit on low-powered devices, b) there's better alternatives on high-powered devices and c) it's a complicated language with slow ramp-up, I'm having trouble in seeing exactly where it fits in for embedded.
> But it's not looking good in the C++ land salary-wise now.
Nope, it isn't. If enough C++ devs jump ship (and, to be honest, in low-level embedded C++ as you know it isn't used much anyway), then salaries will rise again.
The problem is, as someone else pointed out, that many of the places using C++ are shooting themselves in the foot, because they want senior and experienced people who can ramp up quickly on the latest C++ standard, but without a pipeline of unskilled/juniors, there's only a few number of years before there'd be out of any C++ devs.
And because it's not an attractive language, there's no one switching from (for example) Java to C++, or C# to C++, while there are plenty switching from C++ to Java or C#.
[1] Beyond which, it is not clear if safe Rust will ever be able to interact with various embedded OSes for these chips; most of them are external kernels anyway, so there is no way to use those kernels without using C.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#388Earlier quoted context omitted.
8:30 to 5 was required, but also never working at home was required, so what I was trying to (poorly) say is that they basically expected you to live in the office and never see your family. I'll update accordingly. And the comp package I turned down was about $700k at the time, which was 10 years ago. Nowadays it would be a $1M+ job easy. But not seeing my family is not worth any amount of money to me, since there a…
That’s what we called a “regular job” 30 years ago. Work from wasn’t even an option.
A c++ developer requires a deep focus that a typical business 9 to 5 role doesn't
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#389Prediction: employers will respond by offering even less money (and absolutely no training at all) for these positions.
Reality: these jobs pay better than pretty much any other dev job in the world and in the last 2 yrs the salaries have skyrocketed even higher.