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Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

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Re: Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

#271

Post by boring_twenties »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #219
boring_twenties wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I own a home, and I'm not sure if people know how much that exposes folks. OT but even more maddeningly, only those of us not rich enough to own our homes outright are subject to this stupidity. If you don't need a mortgage, you can just buy your home under an LLC or other entity. If you do, this becomes difficult or maybe impossible.

Well, around here, the tax rolls are public. That's how I find out who owns the crack house down the block, etc. > difficult or maybe impossible. For now. There's a lot of movement to expose the Principals of LLCs. Too many bad actors hiding behind them. This is why we can't have nice things.

Finding the name of the owner of a given address is one thing, but at least in my current and previous city, you can get the address (as well as other details) from just the first few letters of the owner's name. Anyone in the world can do this, anonymously, using the county records website.

Re: Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

#272

Post by canthaveitall »

boring_twenties wrote: post #178
Kiro wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what situations do people you don't know ask you what you do where they actually care what you respond? And why not just say that you don't want to say? Among the online friends I have anonymity is the norm.

In 99.9% of offline social situations, "what do you do" will be one of the first few questions asked. How much they actually care is an open question, but it is always more than zero in the very practical sense that if you refuse to respond the conversation will either end or shift to some combination of pressing for the answer and/or making fun of you. On the other hand, I used to be in the habit of responding with…

I do the same social experiments and this reflects my experiences too.

Re: Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

#273

Post by zajio1am »

kerkeslager wrote: post #191
zajio1am wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The primary "ethical loophole" here is that there is no viable ethical alternative. Something can not be immoral if it is the best of a series of bad options, and if you want to exsist in the world and protect your privacy, the only real option is to create a persona. There are simple ethical alternatives, just not disclose that information, or just avoid that questions. Lying in this case is clearly unacceptable.…

> There are simple ethical alternatives, just not disclose that information, or just avoid that questions. That's not always possible. > Lying in this case is clearly unacceptable. In what case? If you're really taking the stance that anonymity is never ethically more important than honesty, that's a pretty extreme stance. Are women being stalked by an ex who is a cop required to be honest about their identities? Are…

> That's not always possible.

In most cases it is. And the article suggested preemptive approach, which implies lying in all cases while being in persona.

> In what case?

In situations described in the discussed article: "If you defiantly refuse to say who you are, it can make people angry that you’re upsetting social reciprocity". I.e. to lie just to avoid awkward social interactions instead of explicitly or implicitly refuse. People being too agreeable in their social interactions so that they would rather lie than cause discomfort. This kind of casual lying.

> Everything is a signaling issue. Your post, for example, signals you as a person who has not-very-nuanced opinions about nuanced topics

Or perhaps you just ignore the context of the article to strawman my position.

> What issues are you considering minor?

Where the cost of not telling a lie is just some social cost unrelated to personal security, employment or other similarly important needs.

Re: Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

#274

Post by Kim_Bruning »

chaboud wrote: post #19

Ah yes... I'm Skimmington Harborough, Esq., I come from a family that made its fortune in philanthropy generations ago. This seems like a pretty straightforward mechanism for covert operatives, to generate a believable (and memorizable) cover that pulls attention away and maintains coherence. That said, as someone who prizes ethical behavior, it's not possible to practice this and remain wholly honest without some so…

To lie is to make an untrue statement with the intent to deceive.

In a play, actors make untrue[1] statements, but the audience is in on it, so there is no intent to deceive, and indeed no one ends up deceived.

Some professions like police officers, firefighters, doctors, military officers, etc might wear uniforms/special clothing and act in a certain way too. No one actually believes that you change into a different person when you put on a uniform, so again no deception takes place.

Back in the 90's it was simply assumed everyone used a pseudonymous persona [2], so again no intent and no deception. Many people still use pseudonymous personas to this day!

The Author of this article DOES take things a bit far. I'd definitely want to be a bit careful recommending their approach. If you want your persona to interact with the real world, then all the aspects relevant to the interaction do need to be true. For example: depending on context, it may or may not be fine to have a persona who claims to be university professor, but if you start falsely using that credential for real world gain, you may have crossed a line. [3]

So in the end I think it's ethically ok to use personas, provided there is no intent to deceive.

--

[1] Arguably: untrue in this world, but perhaps true in the world of the play?

[2] "on the internet, no one knows if you're a dog"

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essjay_controversy

Re: Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

#275

Post by zajio1am »

jrm4 wrote: post #187
zajio1am wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The primary "ethical loophole" here is that there is no viable ethical alternative. Something can not be immoral if it is the best of a series of bad options, and if you want to exsist in the world and protect your privacy, the only real option is to create a persona. There are simple ethical alternatives, just not disclose that information, or just avoid that questions. Lying in this case is clearly unacceptable.…

There is emphatically no "universal social contract not to lie," nor should there be, because what this leads to is "invisible obligations to parties more powerful than you, since you're expected to tell the truth to whoever asks it." -- but right to truth ought to be earned. It is true that it most cases it's not favorable, but the way you're putting it is the stuff of repression. Self defense, it's good to misinfor…

> There is emphatically no "universal social contract not to lie," nor should there be, because what this leads to is "invisible obligations to parties more powerful than you, since you're expected to tell the truth to whoever asks it."

That implication does not hold. Even if i accept 'universal social contract not to lie' for voluntary conversations, then i am not expected tell the truth, just not to lie, therefore there is no implicit obligation to answer such questions. One could avoid the question, reject the question explicitly, or leave the conversation.

Re: Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

#276

Post by zajio1am »

akerl_ wrote: post #137
zajio1am wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The primary "ethical loophole" here is that there is no viable ethical alternative. Something can not be immoral if it is the best of a series of bad options, and if you want to exsist in the world and protect your privacy, the only real option is to create a persona. There are simple ethical alternatives, just not disclose that information, or just avoid that questions. Lying in this case is clearly unacceptable.…

> If someone is willing to lie in such minor issues, then such person is totally untrustworthy What’s the backing for this? If a stranger asks me what my favorite color is, I don’t feel any particular obligation to give them a truthful answer. But at least in my experience, that hasn’t manifested as a willingness to lie or deceive in cases where it matters. I think it’s possible that your personal social contract is…

> What’s the backing for this?

I guess that for truthful people, lying is something that they do not even consider as an option. They could be pressed to it if situation is dire. But if someone consider lying as an option in a banal case, then they could consider it in any case. There are obviously other reasons why not to lie or deceive in particular issues, so 'totally untrustworthy' is likely too strong.

> If a stranger asks me what my favorite color is, I don’t feel any particular obligation to give them a truthful answer.

I do not feel particular obligation to give them answer altogether, but if i decide to do, i would feel obligation it to be truthful.

Re: Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

#277

Post by slyall »

rco8786 wrote: post #93
rlt wrote: post #31

Satoshi is the only very high profile person I’m aware of to remain completely (pseud)onymous. Many others have tried and failed (though they often broke the law, so that might be the main distinguishing factor)

Banksy Daft Punk Deadmau5 Members of KISS (for a while) Blue Man Group But if you're following the advice in this article...nobody should ever know that you're not actually a real person. So you might "know" lots of folks online who are not who they say they are.

I don't think the members of KISS were ever anonymous. They wore makeup on stage but widely used their real names.

Re: Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

#278

Post by akerl_ »

zajio1am wrote: post #276
akerl_ wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone is willing to lie in such minor issues, then such person is totally untrustworthy What’s the backing for this? If a stranger asks me what my favorite color is, I don’t feel any particular obligation to give them a truthful answer. But at least in my experience, that hasn’t manifested as a willingness to lie or deceive in cases where it matters. I think it’s possible that your personal social contract is…

> What’s the backing for this? I guess that for truthful people, lying is something that they do not even consider as an option. They could be pressed to it if situation is dire. But if someone consider lying as an option in a banal case, then they could consider it in any case. There are obviously other reasons why not to lie or deceive in particular issues, so 'totally untrustworthy' is likely too strong. > If a st…

I think you may want to revisit whether your guess is actually accurate. As others have pointed out, "little white lies" are a relatively prevalent part of society.

To pick a mundane example: if somebody asks me "how's it going", I'm almost certainly going to say "good", even if it's not.

Re: Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

#279

Post by O__________O »

Animats wrote: post #182
xapata wrote: post #30

The trouble is when you've been using your alternate persona, chatting with a stranger, and encounter someone who knows your real name that wants to say, "Hello." "Oh, uh, ... that's my middle name."

Encountering someone who knows you is one of the big risks for people working undercover. Read "You're Stepping on my Cloak and Dagger", by Roger Hall.

Interesting, never heard of the book, thanks!

While it’s been awhile, whenever I ran into that situation earlier on I first attempted to avoid them being aware I was nearby and would immediately leave the area. Once thought had no option, but to politely ask if we might talk for second and let them know not to say anything, which they were happy to do. Soon after for unrelated reasons ended up moving and have not run into issue again.

All and all, while whole informant, undercover agent, spy, witness protection, etc - type things are tiny bit similar, having know real people in all those situations and read about others, it’s not comparable to what I am doing. Since those situations might not only end in you being killed, but anyone close to you. For example, once met a fellow who went under cover in well known gang as a journalists, they found out and he was lucky to end up in hospital for months instead of dead.

For me, worst case is I lose being anonymous as a hobby.

Re: Want anonymity? Make a persona not a mystery

#280

Post by zajio1am »

akerl_ wrote: post #278
zajio1am wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What’s the backing for this? I guess that for truthful people, lying is something that they do not even consider as an option. They could be pressed to it if situation is dire. But if someone consider lying as an option in a banal case, then they could consider it in any case. There are obviously other reasons why not to lie or deceive in particular issues, so 'totally untrustworthy' is likely too strong. > If a st…

I think you may want to revisit whether your guess is actually accurate. As others have pointed out, "little white lies" are a relatively prevalent part of society. To pick a mundane example: if somebody asks me "how's it going", I'm almost certainly going to say "good", even if it's not.

> "little white lies" are a relatively prevalent part of society.

And many consider them bad and cowardly.

> To pick a mundane example: if somebody asks me "how's it going", I'm almost certainly going to say "good"

That is not really white lie, more a phrase / exchange with established meaning, both sided knows the protocol.

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