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Until further notice, think twice before using Google to download software

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Re: Until further notice, think twice before using Google to download software

#191
Contrarian viewpoint:

When in the history of the web could you blindly download something from a page found by a search engine and install it?

When has any search index ever conferred that level of trust to a result?

I don't remember any year when you couldn't use a major search engine to find many an asshole site promising that the sought-after content is available if you first download and run their malware .exe file.

"I found this page via Google, therefore its downloads are trustworthy" isn't a thing, hasn't ever, and likely isn't going to be any time soon (and implementing it would have downsides).

Re: Until further notice, think twice before using Google to download software

#192
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the conversation threads, you can pretty easily pick out astroturfing. Plus, do your own research of course. I don't exclusively use reddit for this sort of research... if I'm looking for outdoor gear I will browse outdoor gear forums for people's thoughts. Cycling, same thing... etc. You look for a consensus to be formed before making your own opinion. My point was default google search results are now u…

>If you read the conversation threads, you can pretty easily pick out astroturfing. How do you know that?

We're humans, not computers. We don't have the same problem of discerning intent like AI would.

It's pretty obvious when someone is communicating nothing but positive things about a product, or nothing but negative things about another competing product. Sometimes it's more subtle... but seriously, if you read enough comments you will locate the ones that are obviously shilling or astroturfing. They won't talk about many topics (or no other topic) except the item or company they're promoting.

It's really hard to make a bot or corporate account appear, sound and feel like a genuine human writing about their experiences. Particularly on a platform like reddit where people speak rather freely about products and ruthlessly call out astroturfing accounts.

With all that said - perhaps some people have better BS detectors than others. I like to think mine is rather accurate most of the time.

Re: Until further notice, think twice before using Google to download software

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux package managers are not trustworthy. That is another case where everyone pretends that it is. Usually packages are created and updated by random people and can be pseudonymous.

Oh crud, you are right. Any idea how to fix this? Perhaps a more curated (and more manageable) list? That would seem to be in conflict with our bazaar model.

[deleted]

Re: Until further notice, think twice before using Google to download software

#195
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me laugh - I've found myself appending "reddit" to my search queries more and more frequently when looking for product or service reviews. The regular google results are filled with affiliate-link-driven ads disguised as product reviews. If you want to really know what people think about products, you have to go digging these days.

I do the same and even then you need to be careful about the astroturfing on reddit corporatism is everywhere and infecting the web to enrich a few at the expense of everyone else

[deleted]

Re: Until further notice, think twice before using Google to download software

#196
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you read the conversation threads, you can pretty easily pick out astroturfing. How do you know that?

We're humans, not computers. We don't have the same problem of discerning intent like AI would. It's pretty obvious when someone is communicating nothing but positive things about a product, or nothing but negative things about another competing product. Sometimes it's more subtle... but seriously, if you read enough comments you will locate the ones that are obviously shilling or astroturfing. They won't talk about…

>We don't have the same problem of discerning intent like AI would.

The same problems? No. But humans pretty notoriously don't always communicate effectively.

>It's pretty obvious when someone is communicating nothing but positive things about a product, or nothing but negative things about another competing product. Sometimes it's more subtle... but seriously, if you read enough comments you will locate the ones that are obviously shilling or astroturfing.

Yeah, you'll notice the ones that are obvious, but that doesn't really tell you much about your overall accuracy, since you don't know how many non-obvious ones you're missing.

Re: Until further notice, think twice before using Google to download software

#197
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YouTube search is even worse. They could do so much to filter the results. But they don't. They don't even give you a full page of results. The give you half a dozen and go "Meh. Search is hard. Here is some completely unrelated videos you might like."

I think this is intentional. Those videos for me (unrelated videos to my search) are usually recommended videos and it feels like they are placed there to get you to engage. When I use search on NewPipe, I get _much_ better results, and those unrelated videos don't show up, presumably because those searches don't use a Google account. I get much better results when I search on NewPipe, and have found some great video…

Youtube makes money by getting people to watch ads. Users aren't the focus and haven't been the focus for years. Their design decisions cater to their customers, advertisers, and their algorithmic needs.

Re: Until further notice, think twice before using Google to download software

#198
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Took me a while to understand what "using Google to download software" means Classic clickbait tactics. That was intentional, it made you click the link.

I'm confused about the confusion. This is probably one of the most common ways people obtain software.

I've been Linux-only on the desktop since 2003. I was also confused about the post. People have different experiences!

Re: Until further notice, think twice before using Google to download software

#199
post #26

Google's search product has become a shadow of its former self. Every year it seems harder to find what I'm looking for. The top half of the first search result page is now (potentially malicious) ads, and what follows is likely SEO spam. I need to add "reddit" or "stackoverflow" to half my searches these days so I'm not served nearly useless results. It's a sad decline from 10+ years ago when I'd type a half-formed…

> I need to add "reddit" or "stackoverflow" to half my searches these days It feels truly absurd how many queries I need to append "reddit" to get something useful. The web has changed but Google isn't keeping up.

Is it "Google hasn't kept up"… or perhaps it’s by design. I wonder if google has more interest in showing users what it wants to show them vs what we end users may be looking for. At least for me I see this blatantly when using YouTube. It gives about 2-5 decent search results .. followed by a list not even remotely close to my search.

Re: Until further notice, think twice before using Google to download software

#200
post #156
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me laugh - I've found myself appending "reddit" to my search queries more and more frequently when looking for product or service reviews. The regular google results are filled with affiliate-link-driven ads disguised as product reviews. If you want to really know what people think about products, you have to go digging these days.

and site:news.ycombinator.com surprisingly few topics haven't been discussed here. Often there's interesting technically-minded thinking, and for most (most!) topics it's less likely than a dedicated forum for any interested parties to be present. The latter really applies to any generalist forum or off-topic section of a forum where a sincere community has gathered. Until the dead-internet is achieved, at least.

Yeah, despite how little I comment on here, I use HN all the time for basically the same thing. I think the good moderation, smaller, tighter-knit community, and relatively high-quality of posts compared to Reddit has made it my first go-to when I am curious about something.

I'll usually `query bla Talos II bla bla site:ycombinator.com`, and if that doesn't give me what I want, I'll try the Algolia search [1]. And only then will I give up and try `site:reddit.com`, unless there is a more specific site I know to try first [2].

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[1]: I'm sure most regulars here know it, but if you don't, it is super useful. I just wish it had more query operators to filter out stuff sometimes -- https://hn.algolia.com>

[2]: I'd be interested in what others here do. Off the top of my head, these are the ones I'll usually use, maybe it'll be helpful to someone else:

• For questions about server hardware / networking equipment / weird second-hand HPC stuff, ServeTheHome has a surprising number of quality articles and lots of forum discussion -- `site:servethehome.com` or `site:forums.servethehome.com`

Level1Tech's Forum (site:forum.level1techs.com) can be decent as well for such topics and stuff like ZFS-related questions, but it tends to have a more 'inexperienced'/consumer userbase relative to STH (though usually more into it than, say, the LTT audience).

• If you don't mind Google Translate, Russia's more-or-less HN equivalent, Habr [3] often has pretty high-quality, in-depth articles on a variety of tech/programming topics. It differs from HN a bit in that companies themselves tend to write them and they are displayed inline on Habr itself rather than more of a Reddit-like link-aggregation system like on HN.

The style tends to be similar to stuff like the CloudFlare blog posts -- `site:habr.com` (word of warning: great content, but the comments can be quite mean at times - e.g., the blog post on Cosmopolitan was just filled with awful transphobic stuff).

• For anything video encoding-related, `site:doom9.org` is a great resource when Googling specific questions. And for finding out which country has the best quality release of a movie, outside of something like a torrent tracker, screencaps from https://caps-a-holic.com> are great, and adding `site:forum.blu-ray.com` or `site:dvdcompare.net` to your queries can help a ton to find actual info about a disc.

Otherwise, certain Discord chats, like Beatrice-Raws, /r/av1's Discord, and the SeaDex Discord can have useful discussion.

• Anything Linux-related, the Gentoo Wiki is really good, and Arch too - adding `https://wiki.gentoo.org` to a query can help a lot, particularly for weird compiler flags and old/obscure hardware, or `site:wiki.archlinux.org`. For LTO and optimization bugs, the Gentoo LTO overlay project is also really useful, between the patches/notes and the issue tracker discussions [4]. AUR comments can also be helpful for issues with somewhat bleeding-edge builds.

• Arch's PKGBUILDs and Alpine's APKBUILDs are really easy to read, and I find actually getting to them/the sources for their patches is easier/quicker than most distros. If I'm running into trouble, I tend to check their stuff to avoid the useless Google searches.

• For anything drug/medication-related, the Psychonaut wiki [5] and Tripsit [6] tend to be better than stuff like Wikipedia in terms of "wtf did my doctor prescribe me, what will this do, and do I need to worry about taking it in combination with XYZ".

As a last resort, if neither has good info on some obscure thing I've been given, like when I was living in Russia, if you're willing to Google Translate, I've found Russian Wikipedia to be really vast on all sorts of medications and chemicals, and also much more objective and skeptical about certain topics (e.g., there are tons of borderline placebo Soviet-era meds they'll give you there, and if you look them up on English wikipedia, you can tell some Nootropics-bro wrote half of it, whereas the Russian page will quickly tell you "actually, there's been basically no proof this does anything").

• If I'm looking for a particular file that I can't seem to find normally on Google or torrent tracker, I've had success searching for Apache directory listings with some query abuse [7]. And if that fails, DHT indexers [8] like BTDig [9] can be helpful when you're in a situation where you know the filename, like a particular font that is no longer for sale, but seemingly can't find it on Google, Yandex, Archive.org, etc.

• For finding new music / movies / anime, queries like "Films like Parasite" or "Best Korean movies" on Google tend to be useless due to all the SEO-spam WatchMojo-tier blogs, all featuring the same five films that barely relate to what you're looking for.

‎‎

The best way that I have found, personally, is to use the collages and comment sections on certain torrent trackers; as with HN, the communities tend to be tighter-knit and have higher quality discussion than you can find on Reddit.

For general music, even if you don't intend on ever actually pirating anything, Redacted's ("RED") "collages" (think: ultra high-quality, user-curated lists of similar music) is unmatched. And they have relationship diagrams for each artist to show what other users tend to download. RED is a private tracker, but they allow anyone to sign up if they submit an application through IRC [10]. For East Asian music (j-pop, j-rock, k-pop, etc), Jpopsuki can be useful as well - almost the same system, but more targeted niche (and unfortunately, less curated/moderated).

Otherwise, Last.fm's recommendations tend to be better than Spotify/YouTube for me, and the ability to see which other users have similar taste to you / have the same current favorite song can be really useful, since you can then click on their pages and inevitably find something you've never heard before that matches your taste.

Anime, unfortunately, does not have the same level of pirate curation as movies or music, so I tend to rely a lot on AniDB's tags [11] and MyAnimeList's user-curated recommendations [12]. For Korean and Chinese TV, MyDramaList is similar and pretty decent [13].

And for movies, another torrent tracker, PassThePopcorn ("PTP") has the same sort of collections/collages and system as RED, which can be great if you're looking for very specific types of films. And even better, you have to "pay" credits (non-purchasable points you receive for seeding) to even create a collection, which adds a surprisingly nice, artificial barrier to ensure that the only collections that exist are ones maintained by people who truly care about that particular sub-niche.

Like HN, the comments often have more value than the content itself. And unlike RED, where comments are for a particular torrent (e.g., Fake Record Label's 1997 Japanese-region CD of Fake Band's Self Title album), PTP comments are per torrent group (i.e., Fake Movie as a whole rather).

This can be really nice because the comments often turn into reviews and discussion about particular editions of a film.

As an example, I watched Wong Kar-wai's "Fallen Angels" much later than I should have (great movie, btw), but had I not read the comments, I'd probably have just downloaded the 4K Blu-ray, not realizing they re-colorgraded the film to have an entirely different style from the original, and changed the aspect ratio by cropping it from 16:9 to 2.39:1.

Personally, regardless of what the director claims is his true vision, I am really glad I read those comments because what sticks out to me the most in Fallen Angels is the beautiful color work and the ridiculous decision to use a super-wide angle lens (possibly 9.8mmi adapted to 6.8mm?) [14] for most of the film, which gave it this immersive feel. However, like almost everyone else, I have a 16:9 TV, and so when you crop it to a cinema aspect ratio, something feels very, very wrong -- you lose that immersion and claustrophobia the lens created in the first place [15].

• For anime watchers, you'll often notice that the official subtitles for certain, difficult-to-translate series, like Bakemonogatari end up feeling really robotic or simply don't make much sense in certain scenes.

However, while fansubs can be significantly better sometimes, there are always a dozen different groups, and often neither Google nor Reddit will have any information on whose subs are actually worth downloading.

For that, I tend to use SeaDex [16] or "A Certain Fansubber's Index" [17] -- these are spreadsheets with the current 'best' releases of most anime.

[3]: this is the English version, which has much fewer articles, but it might help to get a general idea - https://habr.com/en/all/> (also, note the company-specific and topic-specific filters)

[4]: https://github.com/gentoo-mirror/lto-overlay>

[5]: https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Adderall>

[6]: https://combo.tripsit.me>

[7]: https://www.reddit.com/r/opendirectories/comments/933pzm/all...>

[8]: https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/BitTorrent_DHT>

[9]: https://btdig.com>

[10]: https://interviewfor.red/en/starting.html>

[11]: https://anidb.net/anime/7243#tab_main_4_1>

[12]: https://myanimelist.net/anime/7785/Yojouhan_Shinwa_Taikei/us...>

[13]: https://mydramalist.com/shows/top>

[14]: really cool video that tries to identify (probably successfully) the mysterious, seemingly non-existent lens the director claimed to have used - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2dq_7wu0Dw>

[15]: good comparisons of the WKW remasters - https://youtu.be/OrvGqEdomLo?t=435>

[16]: https://releases.moe>

[17]: https://index.fansubcar.tel>

(edit: sorry for the wall of text -- the U.S. Adderall shortage had left me unmedicated for the past two weeks, so I guess you can tell finally getting a refill has hit me like a truck!)

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