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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#281

Post by jakesgates »

badcppdev wrote: post #35
klaussilveira wrote: post #19

Heh. I'm pretty proficient in modern C++, and it is my favorite tool for a lot of things, but my PHP job pays way more than any C++ position available. Did an interview once for Senior C++ Engineer, embedded software in the medical device space. All went good, until the offer: $100k. Articles like this are nothing more than a desperate attempt at getting younger generations to learn said topic, so companies can pay t…

Embedded roles pay less than almost any other role... I feel there should be some sort of diagram possible that explains which industries and technologies pay more or less.

Do you have a source you can share for this?

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#282

Post by peteradio »

gary_0 wrote: post #266
spoiler wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Writing new C++ code with all the modern approaches and tooling doesn't sound so bad. Uh, but it still kinda sucks, if only because the nice way that looks idiomatic is usually the incorrect way for either performance (anything newly added like std::variant or std::optional) or safety (operator[]). The correct way is usual the ugly way, because it seems like the committee puts C++ arcanum knowledge above all else,…

The "correct" way is also template-heavy so enjoy long compile times followed by utterly incomprehensible error messages.

You mean coffee breaks and job security are baked into the language?

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#283

Post by jakesgates »

cue_the_strings wrote: post #186
klaussilveira wrote: post #19

Heh. I'm pretty proficient in modern C++, and it is my favorite tool for a lot of things, but my PHP job pays way more than any C++ position available. Did an interview once for Senior C++ Engineer, embedded software in the medical device space. All went good, until the offer: $100k. Articles like this are nothing more than a desperate attempt at getting younger generations to learn said topic, so companies can pay t…

It's not the C++, it's the embedded. Embedded is paid miserably, everywhere, no matter how complex or interesting. Simply put, having to manufacture things, with its supply chain, warehousing, manufacturing, ... is never gonna have the margins of a purely software or financial product. Since the employees' salaries depend on the profit from that physical thing, it can never compete w/ software / finance. The only wel…

Do you think the many embedded engineers working at Apple, TI, AMD, Intel, etc are paid significantly worse than their higher level software counterparts?

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#284

Post by sudosysgen »

dehrmann wrote: post #170
whywhywhydude wrote: post #25

Unless you are doing latency sensitive high frequency trading, why would you use C++? Wouldn’t Go or Java suffice?

Java's gotten a lot better with latency with new GCs. Some codebases use statically-allocated memory in Java and do it very carefully. Sometimes shops will just shut off the GC. Graal also gives you AOT options now. One thing I read is that memory allocation can be faster in Java because malloc can result in system calls. Deallocation is what's slower.

You can also use your own allocator in C++ to reduce system calls.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#285

Post by MetallicCloud »

elforce002 wrote: post #264
MetallicCloud wrote: post #125

I started writing C++ about 15 years ago. It's still my strongest and most enjoyable language. However, at the moment I mostly write Swift\ObjC because I couldn't find any decent paying C++ jobs. I'd love to get back to it.

I'm thinking on learning a system language. Do you recommend C++ or Rust? I now mostly TS, Python, R, Dart, and currently basic/intermediate in Swift.

I like Rust and think it's got a good future. However I've not seen too many job postings that actually use it, but as it catches on more that will probably increase. I guess it depends on if you're thinking near term or long term.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#286

Post by jedberg »

stagger87 wrote: post #250
jedberg wrote: post #142

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

Just to clarify, you used the word "abuse" several times to describe a job where you would have to work in office between 8:30 to 5 and pull (I'm safely assuming) half a million dollars a year?

8:30 to 5 was required, but also never working at home was required, so what I was trying to (poorly) say is that they basically expected you to live in the office and never see your family. I'll update accordingly.

And the comp package I turned down was about $700k at the time, which was 10 years ago. Nowadays it would be a $1M+ job easy.

But not seeing my family is not worth any amount of money to me, since there are other jobs for a lot less that let me see my family and live plenty comfortably.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#287

Post by cjbgkagh »

pyb wrote: post #267
cjbgkagh wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was told $300K about a decade ago and I told them no. I was already making more than that at a big tech company with a much easier pace of work. $500K would have peaked my interest, why didn’t they tell me $500K if that was an option? A quick google search is suggesting that $200K for the top end of experience, when I was told $300K they said it was as high as they go. Where is the rest of this compensation coming…

This. I think these firms would have an easier time hiring engineers away from FAANGs, if they realised that FAANG engineers don't precisely understand how the bonus system works. (I think the vagueness is actually seen as a feature of the bonus system!)

They were quite explicit that management, traders and quants take the initial passes at the bonus pool and not to expect much out of it. 100% seemed to be the max not the minimum. They made it clear that C++ devs are support staff and hence second class citizens. And as a second class citizen in a support role it would be hard to make the case for a personal performance bonus.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#288

Post by nostrademons »

stouset wrote: post #279
dahfizz wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does your employer pay you if they don't take money from anyone?

By providing a service to customers, rather than finding ways to skim money off the top of markets?

If you ask most financial institutions they would say the service they provide is "liquidity" - they let you put your money in or take your money out at any time (in exchange for securities), as well as make decisions about where you want to allocate your capital based on your personal view of the world.

This always fell a little flat to me (hence why I left the financial industry early in my career), but it's pretty analogous to merchants or retail. What service does a storefront provide, other than marking up the wholesale price of a good by 3x? They offer convenience - you can buy anything you want at the time you want it just by picking it up and swiping a credit card, vs. having to contract with a wholesaler for delivery, which might be months in the future, at a place that's convenient for the wholesaler, and needing to buy in quantities that no individual really needs. So it is with brokerages & exchanges - they let you buy any security with a couple clicks of a button, vs. needing to get an ISDA and pay a lawyer to write a contract, plus find someone else that wants to trade with you, plus take on the risk that your counterparty goes insolvent. And so it is with market-makers like Citadel or Jane Street: they ensure that you can always find a buyer for your securities (for a price), and that you don't have to worry that about simply not being able to sell stocks at any price.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#289

Post by [deleted] »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #274
stagger87 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify, you used the word "abuse" several times to describe a job where you would have to work in office between 8:30 to 5 and pull (I'm safely assuming) half a million dollars a year?

The parent comment's wording was funny, but I think the point was that 9-5 was just the start of the commitment. They would have been expected to stay late and work weekends in the office, alone, isolated on their work until it was done. Any engineering job paying double Netflix comp is going to have very high expectations about hours worked and rate of delivery.

[deleted]

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#290

Post by jstx1 »

jedberg wrote: post #268
jstx1 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year Can you tell us more about this? What's their reason for it?

Netflix separated pay and performance. Your performance was evaluated all year, and if you weren't a top performer, you were let go. In the spring we would do 360 reviews, where anyone could write a review of anyone else, to give candid feedback (although giving candid feedback was encouraged all year, but this gave you a formal outlet to do it). In the fall, your pay was evaluated (and kicked in at the new year). Yo…

Thanks for sharing! The focus on paying top compensation is very different from anywhere I've worked.
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