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Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

mullvad.net

481–490 of 534 posts

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unpopular opinion: If you don't like democracy and use your democratic rights to actively work to dismantle it, you probably shouldn't actually be allowed to participate in democracy since you are operating in bad faith.

That's not unpopular, it's a typical authoritarian opinion. Every censor out there is defending us from threats to our democracy. They would love the idea of setting up the Agency for the Good Faith Belief in Democracy and Democratic Rights , who would certify individuals as being qualified to vote. https://allthatsinteresting.com/voting-literacy-test

This sounds like the Paradox of Tolerance.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Ukraine is a good example of your point, as apart from being a war between two nations, it is clearly also a war between democratic and authoritarian belief systems. That ideological divide is a large part of what sparked it in the first place--the whole thing began with mass pro-democracy demonstrations that ousted an authoritarian leader. My perception is that Ukrainians know what it's like to live un…

It gets less clear-cut as the war drags on. For example, a rather extreme law on mass media has been passed in Ukraine recently, with the justification that it is necessary to block Russian propaganda. https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/zelensky-signs-media-l... I wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine ends up winning a Pyrrhic victory in a sense that it'll liberate all of its territory, but its internal politics will r…

Yes, that is true, though similar erosions of democracy also happen in well-established democracies like the US and UK when there are wars. I think there is clearly still an aspiration towards western-style liberal democracy even if there are many gaps in how it's implemented.

I think this aspiration is the fundamental problem for Putin. He sees it as encouraging things like the ousting of Yanukovych, which he desperately wants to stop from being repeated in other countries within his sphere of influence. He already almost lost Belarus in a similar way.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#483
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's only specifically the first 10 amendments, which are generally referred to as the bill of rights as they were added to the constitution when it was ratified and cover most basic freedoms so they're taught in school other rights-granting amendments are the post civil war ones which are slightly less well known but also covered in school

Nah I often see people talking about stuff like prop expecting everyone to know what that refers to.

Most Americans won't know those, because those are state-specific (usually for California; most states don't even have Propositions that citizens can vote on).

Every American knows what the 1st Amendment is, by contrast.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if we don’t limit to significant global powers and look at all countries on earth?

For starters, have you reviewed this Wikipedia page: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy As for my specific response, the existence of a non-global power example to me is irrelevant, since it’s unlikely to change the course of humanity. If you have an example, specific counter point, request for clarification, etc — happy to attempt to respond. This comment by me within this thread might also expand on the to…

Direct Democracy was addressed and criticized specifically by American founding fathers. You should read the fedaralist papers, specifically the numbers written by Madison. They were aware of what I see here as an extremely naive case for "democracy".

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, it’s very common pattern, one that in part is caused by power grabs, but also by people suddenly realizing they now the ones in control and if they fail, they’re next on the chopping blocks. Would be curious about the evolution on ACLU on free speech you referenced. Does this article cover your understanding, or is it something else? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html

It's one of the many articles covering it; Wikipedia has a few more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union... But I think it's best to go directly to the source, which would be the 2018 ACLU memo that triggered the attention and judge for yourself: https://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/20180621AC... To be fair to ACLU, they did backtrack somewhat on all this. Speaking as a member wh…

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Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#486
post #467

As a pro-EU citizen I feel more and more inclined to agree on some of the Brexit rhetoric. Commissioners have shown multiple times that they are too permeable to lobbying, too willing to water down tough environmental regulation, and too keen on 'security' surveillance. So far the EU parliament members have balanced the act with some sanity. But the power and lack of transparency of the EC both with regards to lobbyi…

The idea that a continent full of people with different cultures and economies would benefit from following laws set by politicians elected by voters they can't even communicate with in their native language seems insane to me. I really just don't get it at all. Can't we just do the free trade thing without all the surveillance laws and other crap? I'm all for European trade, but I felt I had to vote Brexit because o…

>Can't we just do the free trade thing without all the surveillance laws and other crap?

Basically, no. What you're asking for is what the EU has tried to do somewhat: become a confederation. It doesn't work. The USA tried it back in the 1700s and it was a disaster. The country couldn't defend itself, have any kind of central banking and currency, or any consistent policy. It was replaced in 12 years with the more centralized federal system that exists now.

The EU was created because the European nations wanted to be a powerful continent-sized political entity that could rival the US, and have the same benefits and power on the world stage. But there are costs to this: you need much greater centralization. Arguably, the US doesn't have enough centralization and this is causing many of its internal problems now.

Basically, if you want to be a world power, you can't just be a bunch of small, disparate countries in a loose trade confederation. You need more centralization of power, and the problems that come with that. If you don't want that, you need to just be happy with being a bunch of separate, sovereign nations with different currencies and trade barriers between them all. Pick one.

From my perspective, the EU's problems you see are because it won't just commit to a centralized system and eliminating national sovereignty, and it's trying to have it both ways.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#487
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roughly translates to: I prefer liberty with danger to peace with servitude/slavery.

> "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." malo ... quam ... ⇒ I prefer ... to ... Preferring what to what? This is why all other words are in accusative singular as simple enumeration: periculosam ⇒ dangerousness libertatem ⇒ freedom quietam ⇒ quietness servitutem ⇒ slavery Hence I would take his statement as: "I prefer dangerousness and freedom to quietness and slavery."

I prefer dangerous freedom over quiet slavery.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets less clear-cut as the war drags on. For example, a rather extreme law on mass media has been passed in Ukraine recently, with the justification that it is necessary to block Russian propaganda. https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/zelensky-signs-media-l... I wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine ends up winning a Pyrrhic victory in a sense that it'll liberate all of its territory, but its internal politics will r…

Yes, that is true, though similar erosions of democracy also happen in well-established democracies like the US and UK when there are wars. I think there is clearly still an aspiration towards western-style liberal democracy even if there are many gaps in how it's implemented. I think this aspiration is the fundamental problem for Putin. He sees it as encouraging things like the ousting of Yanukovych, which he desper…

I'm pretty sure that Putin literally believes all that tripe about "triune people", and I don't think he needed any excuses beyond that. Well, there's also the part where I think he really wants to end up in the history textbooks with the same standing as Ivan III and other famous "gatherers of the land".

So, in a sense, he is also fighting for his country and its nation - it just happens to be an imaginary one: "Greater Russia".

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#489
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have proof for such a claim?

"Seems like" doesn't need proof, it is clearly opinion. "the fact that UK is one of the Five Eyes" is attested to on the NSA's own domain: https://www.nsa.gov/Helpful-Links/NSA-FOIA/Declassification-... …although the "and that's bad" part of Five Eyes is tied to what Snowden released.

The thing is. Brexit vote was a referendum, not a decision of "deep state" or whatever one might call it.

And if you remember, there were two main topics surrounding Leave campaigns:

1. We pay to the EU more than we get - which was absolutely correct btw. 2. Anti-immigration sentiments - which is sad if that's a synonym for racism. At the same time, the UK has changed extremely in the past 7 decades. From a white Christian country with very distinctive culture became an extremely multicultural country with places where "natives" are a minority. I am pro-immigration and pro-multiculturalism, but I can understand why some people have an issue with such a quick change.

I know OP is stating that as an opinion, but I don't think it is based on a knowledge of the UK reality and there would be very little evidence supporting it.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#490
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Seems like" doesn't need proof, it is clearly opinion. "the fact that UK is one of the Five Eyes" is attested to on the NSA's own domain: https://www.nsa.gov/Helpful-Links/NSA-FOIA/Declassification-... …although the "and that's bad" part of Five Eyes is tied to what Snowden released.

The thing is. Brexit vote was a referendum, not a decision of "deep state" or whatever one might call it. And if you remember, there were two main topics surrounding Leave campaigns: 1. We pay to the EU more than we get - which was absolutely correct btw. 2. Anti-immigration sentiments - which is sad if that's a synonym for racism. At the same time, the UK has changed extremely in the past 7 decades. From a white Chr…

Don't mistake the purpose of the voters themselves for the purpose of the campaign for their votes, especially not in the eyes of others.

The voters got targeted messaging for what they were most likely to believe, but taken as an aggregate the campaigns were contradictory.

(This also means that most people who say they aren't getting the Brexit they voted for are probably sincere and justified in that, even though people like me did tell them this at the time).

> We pay to the EU more than we get - which was absolutely correct btw.

As with recent claims of progress in nuclear fusion, it depends on where you draw the boundary of the system.

The EU, being a free trade agreement with the unusual extra layer of some democratic self-updating that most FTAs don't bother with, also made it easier to do business and thus create wealth.

I know this isn't important to your point, but I do find it rather bizarre that the EU, which is mostly white and Christian, got the flack from people who say they want a white Christian country.

That said, I saw such nonsense at the time, racists blaming the EU for too many Africans and Middle Easterners.

I would add a third pillar of the Brexit campaign to your two: "take back control", from all the people who didn't like the EU limiting what the UK could do. This included the Human Rights Act and ECHR even though that's technically not the EU.

That last bit connects to the right to privacy.

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