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I want to lose every debate

sive.rs

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Re: I want to lose every debate

#371

Post by SuoDuanDao »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #271
SuoDuanDao wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thank you. If I'm ever in a position of choosing a co-founder again, I'll probably ask potential candidates their opinions on debate and treat any positive sentiment towards debate as a negative signal. Few things are more tiring in an already difficult slog than needing to go to war every time you'd like to introduce a change. I know some people are energized by debate, but I'd rather work with someone who builds my…

Your position/preference seems to arise from your identification with your own ideas, which is one of the most fundamental differences in the realm of people's response to "debate". There's absolutely nothing wrong with identifying with your own ideas, and indeed, it will naturally lead to a negative experience if you have to interact with someone who attacks those ideas. However, there are people who don't experienc…

There's a bit more to it than that. Identifying with my ideas makes challenging them stressful, yes, but debate changes a potential eustress into distress. A dialectic where we're trying to leverage different initial perspectives to both arrive at a better understanding of the truth feel like I'm risking something valuable to win something more valuable. It's stressful but exhilarating. A debate just feels like I'm protecting something of value from someone who brings nothing of value to the interaction. Because I assign value to ideas, debate feels inherently destructive and negative-sum.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#372

Post by the_af »

hbrn wrote: post #364
the_af wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you're already getting upset Am I upset? You sound upset yourself. > Good thing I never claimed to have a "just listen" mindset. In fact, I said I disagree with it. It raises the question of what you were trying to debate with me then. Could you summarize what you think my initial comment was arguing?

> Could you summarize what you think my initial comment was arguing? In a lame "gotcha" attempt you took author's words extremely literally: "Let's see how you lose a debate against 2 x 2 = 5 believer. Haha, I'm so smart." Now, which one do you think is more likely: - Author meant to say that literally every debate is worth losing - You (likely on purpose) misunderstood the point author is trying to make What do you…

> In a lame "gotcha" attempt you took author's words extremely literally: "Let's see how you lose a debate against 2 x 2 = 5 believer. Haha, I'm so smart."

Have you read the HN guidelines?

> You (likely on purpose) misunderstood

Ah, we have a mind reader!

> Can you explain in your own words?

I can, but I won't for you, because it would be fruitless.

No need to reply: you won. You won big time. Have a cookie.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#373

Post by JAlexoid »

hbrn wrote: post #337
JAlexoid wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really not how debate typically works. Someone states their position, while you're expected to undermine their position with a retort. It is one of the least productive ways of resolving differences.

You're supposed to both attack your opponent's position and defend yours. What you're describing is a lack of debate culture. A good example of that was already referred here (the infamous "so you're saying" interview).

That's literally worse.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#374

Post by qwertox »

BeetleB wrote: post #363
qwertox wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to not let women get a college degree There's no reason for me to stick to your exact argument since yours is a subset of a problem which is occurring in several places. For us this issue is settled and there is no reason to undo the progress which has been made. > I would prefer to live in a society where it's considered a good thing to not let women get a college degree and marry them off in their teens and if th…

> For us this issue is settled and there is no reason to undo the progress which has been made. This is just an "I've made up my mind and don't want to think about it" mentality. Overall you're missing the point: You say "For us this issue is settled" and they say the same - it just settled differently. If you're not open to explore it, do you see that it is weird to expect them to be open to changing? > This implies…

https://twitter.com/mayahiga/status/1620586546083803136

Re: I want to lose every debate

#375

Post by JAlexoid »

muh_gradle wrote: post #347
JAlexoid wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That whole wall of text completely ignoring my point. Not only that, I now have a very negative opinion of you... simply because you completely ignored what I wrote. What I learned from your response, is that debates in US teach you - ignore the principles of the argument, fail to follow up and say(or write) a lot of words. (to "win") Funny, that to me you've become the caricature that you're complaining about.

The irony of someone arguing about high school debate being bad and then making piss poor arguments of zero substance is not at all lost upon me although it looks like it whizzed past you. I think someone like you would've benefited more debate than anyone else.

And yet here you come. Replying to my comment, using the same exact techniques created specifically "to win".

Literally evoking the feeling of being attack, by introducing thinly veiled insults into your comment.

What do you think would result from such a retort? (specifically after you called my perspective "piss poor")

PS: I have debated many times at school and afterwards. Your condescension is poorly hidden

Re: I want to lose every debate

#378

Post by croes »

fluoridation wrote: post #204
croes wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just stating the obvious, wasn't targeted at you

"Debate" doesn't have to mean just an organized discussion between two people in front of an audience. If two people are having an argument where they're trying to convince each other of their own position, that's also a debate.

But that's not what he describes in the article.

"I don’t want to convince anyone of my existing perspective."

That's not a debate

Re: I want to lose every debate

#379

Post by dang »

dtx1 wrote: post #377
dang wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious flamewar will get you banned here. Please don't do it again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Everything is up for debate and consideration but please don't talk bad about my invisible friend?

Doing again what I just asked you not to do again is a bad idea.

I'm not going to ban you because I don't want to give the impression that there's anything personal about this (there isn't), but please don't assume that these requests have no teeth.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#380

Post by pattisapu »

francisofascii wrote: post #255
pattisapu wrote: post #209

Vigorous debate is a good thing. It's about learning to turn it off afterwards. Debate at its best is where the issues are at stake -- not the relationship. Getting clear on that is an important communicative and emotional skill. The problem with "wanting to lose" in this post is how fake and sentimental that attitude can become, against our best intentions. If both sides can put their cards on the table, that's a mo…

> The problem with "wanting to lose" in this post is how fake and sentimental that attitude can become, against our best intentions. A better way might be to say, "losing can be good" If you put your best forward, and still lose, then you learned something, and hopefully became stronger. In the same way tennis players always want to play people better than them, because they will get better playing a superior player…

A good analogy. And that stance is so different from "wanting to lose" -- it is "wanting a challenge." To get bested by a worthy opponent. That feeling can only be had after bringing one's best and strongest game to the court.
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