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St. John’s Reading List: A Great Books Curriculum

sjc.edu

81–90 of 155 posts

Re: St. John’s Reading List: A Great Books Curriculum

#81

Was a little disappointed to see so little from the east in terms of recommended books. The Bhagavad Gita and ZhuangXi made the list, but nothing in terms of other important works by the Buddha, or Yoga or the epics like the Mahabharata. If someone were to read some of the Upanishadic works, it would be really interesting to see their influence on the works of Plotinus, etc.

The College offers a Master’s degree in Eastern Classics, applying the same approach to a literary tradition which, while it intersects with and interacts with the Western tradition, easily also stands on its own: https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/graduate/masters-easte...

The monolithic, slow-to-change Great Books list that forms the core of the St John’s undergraduate Reading List is famously and self-consciously concerned primarily and narrowly with the Western intellectual tradition that informed the Founding Fathers, etc. - so as, in the creators’ thinking, to prepare graduates for citizenship in a liberal democracy.

It’s likely no one is more critical of the List than the students and faculty, who argue constantly over omissions, additions, and alterations (there is barely enough time to read all the works on the Program, so for each added, one must often be taken out).

The historical context of the creation of the Reading List accounts for its significant bias towards dead white cis men, as the creators of the list were themselves white cis men at a time when the American education system was not integrated.

(You may be pleased to hear that, for at least the last several decades, the college has admitted people of all colors and genders!)

Re: St. John’s Reading List: A Great Books Curriculum

#82
post #63

Not an alum, but in an effort to improve my written and spoken english, I picked up the list and read the about 80% of the content. I was kind to myself and skipped any book that I absolutely found a slog (there were only a few, Aristotle's metaphysics and some early of the dark age Christian philosophy). The book list is really good at telling you to skip the really irrelevant bits of ancient books. I found that rea…

How long did it take you to read them? Did you read them in order as presented? Did you start with a strategy for retention or comprehension (especially with the non-modern English) so that it wouldn’t be wasted time?

Re: St. John’s Reading List: A Great Books Curriculum

#83
post #63

Not an alum, but in an effort to improve my written and spoken english, I picked up the list and read the about 80% of the content. I was kind to myself and skipped any book that I absolutely found a slog (there were only a few, Aristotle's metaphysics and some early of the dark age Christian philosophy). The book list is really good at telling you to skip the really irrelevant bits of ancient books. I found that rea…

RE 3: as an SJC alum, I found my reading speed slowed drastically both during and after four years spent reading and discussing these books. I found myself thinking while reading more often, making more connections within and between works. That said, reading alone misses the meat of “The Program” (always capitalized!) - it’s the searching, pointed, urgent discussion of a work with others who share a common language…

> That said, reading alone misses the meat of “The Program” (always capitalized!) - it’s the searching, pointed, urgent discussion of a work with others who share a common language (from all having read and discussed the earlier works in the Program) that provoked deep thought and reflection, held me to account for intellectual rigor, and built up my faculty for critical thinking.

Is there anywhere online that achieves anything close to this for this curriculum for people who can’t attend full time in person? An HN for SJC curriculum?

Re: St. John’s Reading List: A Great Books Curriculum

#85
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that list is ... eclectic, to put it politely. If you want to learn maths, I wouldn't recommend Aristotle, Descartes and Darwin. Perhaps I don't understand what "The information presented is for illustration purposes only and may not reflect the current reading list" means, and why one would link that page anyway.

The Great Books approach involves reading the actual historical development of a subject and seeing not only what the state of the art is but how we got from here to there.

Is it actually doing that? Like it seems to have some good stuff for early history - euclid's elements and what not, but i'm not sure what the theme is for the later books, and lots of it seems very applied, or just other sciences that use math and not really about math itself.

That said, i haven't read most of these, so maybe i am wrong.

Re: St. John’s Reading List: A Great Books Curriculum

#86
post #54

It's an interesting approach. They do like the classic sources. I've at least skimmed more than half of those titles, long after college. It's amusing that they have students read Pikkety's "Capital" before Marx's "Capital". You don't want to learn geometry from Euclid. You read Euclid after you already know geometry, to see how he built it up. Similarly, you don't want to learn calculus from Newton. Or physics from…

Is Euclid just about geometry? I have not read it, but others have written it is a good introduction to mathematical proofs. A few comments on HN over the years said Hammack's "Book Of Proof" or Velleman's "How To Prove It" are more thorough, but are intended for 3rd/4th year math undergrad, and Euclid is easier to get through. My last math course was stats and business calc about 30 years ago.

Are you looking for a book to learn proofs from? Are you looking to learn any math topics in particular?

I think you can go through any of the books you listed and get an understanding of proofs. The proofs books usually use basic number theory or set theory for examples because the point is to learn the logic and structure of proofs. (If the book isn't enough for you, you can use Khan Academy as a refresher.) Learning more math is left to other books.

I looked through the table of contents for the ones you've linked, but neither looks like an upper year math book. Typically, if there is an explicit course on proofs, it's covered in the lower division.

The proofs course I took used "Mathematical Proofs: A Transition to Advanced Mathematics" by Chartrand, Polimeni, and Zhang. It's ridiculously expensive on Amazon right now, so I'm not sure I can recommend it for the cost. But it does cover more areas of math using proofs. It covers proofs in set theory, number theory, combinatorics, calculus, and group theory at a very basic level. The books you linked seem to cover less of those topics, so I think Chartrand et al. is a more gentle intro to different branches of upper division math.

Re: St. John’s Reading List: A Great Books Curriculum

#88

Was a little disappointed to see so little from the east in terms of recommended books. The Bhagavad Gita and ZhuangXi made the list, but nothing in terms of other important works by the Buddha, or Yoga or the epics like the Mahabharata. If someone were to read some of the Upanishadic works, it would be really interesting to see their influence on the works of Plotinus, etc.

The name of the university literally alludes to Christianity.

Re: St. John’s Reading List: A Great Books Curriculum

#89

Huh, this is neat. If you click on a book's subject(s), it will then take you to the specific topic and a reading list tailored to it. For example, this is their Mathematics reading list: https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/subjects... .

(edit: apparently these are just "books tagged mathematics", not the mathematics tutorial reading list. First and second paragraphs mostly hold) I went through a great books curriculum (not in math), and this list reminds me of my primary complaint with the whole Great Books approach. "Great Books" is mired in fairly a ridiculous fetishism of the Greek classics, the Enlightenment era, the American founding, and the A…

Computing is not yet old enough for us to know which books on computing are great books.

Also the point of reading Euclid is not really to learn geometry but rather to investigate and examine the oldest, most primordial expression of the idea that math should be formalized using a few axioms.

Re: St. John’s Reading List: A Great Books Curriculum

#90

Huh, this is neat. If you click on a book's subject(s), it will then take you to the specific topic and a reading list tailored to it. For example, this is their Mathematics reading list: https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/subjects... .

(edit: apparently these are just "books tagged mathematics", not the mathematics tutorial reading list. First and second paragraphs mostly hold) I went through a great books curriculum (not in math), and this list reminds me of my primary complaint with the whole Great Books approach. "Great Books" is mired in fairly a ridiculous fetishism of the Greek classics, the Enlightenment era, the American founding, and the A…

> "Great Books" is mired in fairly a ridiculous fetishism of the Greek classics, the Enlightenment era, the American founding, and the Anglo view of the western world.

The webpage clearly states that the list is of foundational books of greco-roman civilization. And SJC is an american university. What do you expect?

Also, fetishism? Greek classics are the foundation of european civilization. That's like going to a christian seminary and whining about their fetishism of the bible.

> But it's a much larger problem in Mathematics where the field is essentially unrecognizable from the way it would've been taught in 1920 or whatever.

The foundation of european mathematics goes back to the ancient greeks. It's a foundational books list.

> Russell is predictably floating around (see paragraph 1) even though... well, yawn.

Are you serious?

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