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Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

mullvad.net

401–410 of 534 posts

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is an example then?

There is no example, especially if you’re limiting to significant global powers.

What if we don’t limit to significant global powers and look at all countries on earth?

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#402

Not sure if it was here before, but they also posted an article yesterday on how this may (or may not, its up to interpretation) affect open source operating systems https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2023/2/1/eu-chat-control-law-wil...

It was[1] but for some reason it got pushed off from the front page very quickly.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34608330

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#403
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reference, many years ago when a similar surveillance law was implemented in Sweden (the FRA law), 90% of people were against it (in random polling) but politicians voted it in anyway. It later turned out this was a diplomatic back channel direct order from the US, which was found out through that big Wikileaks dump. So, the people are not at fault in these situations imo. First, it’s politicians and after that i…

Regardless of what form of government is currently ruling a given country, ultimately the people within it are responsible for the actions taken by the government, not the government itself. As for your other point, I agree, free balanced independent journalism, whistleblower, leaks, etc - play a clear role in insuring public stays informed. That said, in my opinion, if 90% percent of a population was against somethi…

I can be against something but not believe it is worth fighting to the death for. My town implemented a new tax that is highly unlikely to accomplish its stated goals. I’m not going to overthrow the government over $300 a year.

It’s the thousands of little paper cuts that build up over time but that can go on for an entire lifetime without ever reaching a breaking point.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#404
Remember the times where ACTA was THE issue?

Now we have a pandemic that just won't end, war with associated militarization and hit to the economy, inflation and cost of living crisis and climate change mass migrations to look forward to.

How do people have mental capacity to even think about the potential dangers of mass surveillance in democratic countries?

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#405
Excessive authoritarianism is scary but the thing that people should really wake up to is the nuclear combination of authoritarianism and digitization.

As an example, capital controls.

I grew up in the 80s, which was largely cash-based. You got paid in cash, spent in cash, and gift/transact to others in cash. Oversight was severely limited, close to non-existent.

The concept is that you're innocent until proven guilty. It's your money, do with it what you want and it's nobody's business what you do with it. And should you engage in any illegal matters, then it's up to the government to build this case with due diligence: have a probable cause, collect evidence, maybe arrange a warrant, etc.

The important part is the very high barrier to building such a case. It's a huge amount of work just to do this for one case. Because of this, authoritarianism is kept in check. You could say it doesn't "scale".

Now we fast forward to our digital "cash" society. It's questionable if you actually own the money at all, but that's a technicality that is beyond the point.

You have no transaction privacy. Not only is it all on record, the threshold for a flagged transaction gets lower and lower. Buy a car and the bank knows and the IRS knows (in the Netherlands). There's a proposal to do laundering analysis on any transaction > 100 euro. You can't deposit or withdraw sizable money without caps or raising all kinds of flags.

The privacy is eliminated. There is no probable cause or warrant, you're treated as guilty by default and evidence is to be collected that you're innocent. A full reversal of assumptions, rights and freedom.

Which is only the beginning, because my true point is that this scales. A government now has the ability to do whatever the hell they want with your money. They can analyze millions of us and control it with the push of a button.

Wrong photo in iCloud? Money frozen. Political opponent? Assets seized. Spent too much of your money on high energy products? Programmatic tax applied.

You can make that list as long as you want, but let's take even the absolute simplest case of having that wrong photo. Imagine the analog scenario where a government regularly bursts through the door of your home to look at your photo albums. That would be the most absurd thing ever, not to mention ridiculously inefficient. Yet this is digitally happening as we speak, and nobody knows or cares.

This kind of digital insight and power over your life is a power that should not exist. Most people in this world live in authoritarian countries. Quite a few democratic one are edging towards it. Do the math.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Ukraine is a good example of your point, as apart from being a war between two nations, it is clearly also a war between democratic and authoritarian belief systems. That ideological divide is a large part of what sparked it in the first place--the whole thing began with mass pro-democracy demonstrations that ousted an authoritarian leader. My perception is that Ukrainians know what it's like to live un…

> I don't think you'd see anything close to this level of resistance if victory would mean an authoritarian Ukraine rather than a democratic Ukraine. Ah, well: I do. I think this has extraordinarily little to do with any "political system", of which Ukraine and Russia were both quite similar. One Nation invaded another, and in such moments people's nationalism is trigged. One defends' "one's own nation" regardless .…

I don't think your reading lines up with history. Putin was clearly content to allow Ukraine a large degree of sovereignty and autonomy as long as they remained under an authoritarian system. If nationalism was the only driver, why overthrow Yanukovych, thereby spitting in Putin's face and risking domination by another country?

What wasn't tolerable to Putin was a bourgeoning democracy on Russia's doorstep with similar ethnography and demography to Russia. If it proved to be more successful than Russia's model (which isn't hard), that's a clear threat to his regime.

'I think this has extraordinarily little to do with any "political system", of which Ukraine and Russia were both quite similar.'

It seems like you're simply ignoring what happened in 2014. The stark difference between Ukraine and Russia's political systems (and their future trajectories) after that point is one of the main causes of the war.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understand your point, though disagree. My understanding is the majority of people on Earth stay within days walking distance from where they grew up. Further, there are numerous countries that if they wanted could easily cover the costs related to relocating anyone that desired to leave another country. I would argue the real explanation is most likely regardless of person’s situation, most want a predictable future…

I think both you and parent are right to an extent. Both are, in fact, factor when it comes to a person staying within a certain distance of their birthplace. I did move and pretty far by most standards, but I did have both opportunity and some support to do just that. I am not entirely certain I would do the same without it. On the other hand, I was young and predictability was the least of my considerations. Come t…

Understand.

For clarity though, I don’t mean literal predictability, I mean relative predictability from the individual’s perspective, which for some actual means life being predictability unpredictable; to some degree, I am, in part because I value the chance to improvise, but anyone that knows me would say that’s predictable.

As for population migration, statistics I had heard before, was roughly half of world’s population doesn’t move more than days walk from where they grew up and remaining in a given area is rarely tied to personal or regional opportunities or threats. Clearly my understanding might be wrong or things like climate change might force people to move; for example, roughly billion of the eight billion people on Earth will likely be displaced by climate change.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#408
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reference, many years ago when a similar surveillance law was implemented in Sweden (the FRA law), 90% of people were against it (in random polling) but politicians voted it in anyway. It later turned out this was a diplomatic back channel direct order from the US, which was found out through that big Wikileaks dump. So, the people are not at fault in these situations imo. First, it’s politicians and after that i…

Regardless of what form of government is currently ruling a given country, ultimately the people within it are responsible for the actions taken by the government, not the government itself. As for your other point, I agree, free balanced independent journalism, whistleblower, leaks, etc - play a clear role in insuring public stays informed. That said, in my opinion, if 90% percent of a population was against somethi…

[dead]

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#409
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reference, many years ago when a similar surveillance law was implemented in Sweden (the FRA law), 90% of people were against it (in random polling) but politicians voted it in anyway. It later turned out this was a diplomatic back channel direct order from the US, which was found out through that big Wikileaks dump. So, the people are not at fault in these situations imo. First, it’s politicians and after that i…

Regardless of what form of government is currently ruling a given country, ultimately the people within it are responsible for the actions taken by the government, not the government itself. As for your other point, I agree, free balanced independent journalism, whistleblower, leaks, etc - play a clear role in insuring public stays informed. That said, in my opinion, if 90% percent of a population was against somethi…

There's a difference between "90% of the population is against something" and "the same, but they are also willing to vote against their chosen representative in order to stop it, and have a viable alternative that will".

In the US, we talk a lot of partisan issues that pit parts of the country against one another; and of bipartisan issues that unite them. I'd like to introduce the concept of an antipartisan issue: one that unites the country against its own politicians. In this particular case, surveillance is antipartisan, because:

- People do not want to be surveilled

- Politicians believe the people need to be surveilled in order to stay in office

The last one might seem confusing. But keep in mind that things like high crime rates tend to get politicians thrown out of their job. Big, high-profile busts of scumbag criminals tend to make politicians look more competent and thus increase chances of reelection. And if politicians as a class believe that surveillance is necessary to prosecute crime, then they will disobey democratic instruction not to.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both you and parent are right to an extent. Both are, in fact, factor when it comes to a person staying within a certain distance of their birthplace. I did move and pretty far by most standards, but I did have both opportunity and some support to do just that. I am not entirely certain I would do the same without it. On the other hand, I was young and predictability was the least of my considerations. Come t…

Understand. For clarity though, I don’t mean literal predictability, I mean relative predictability from the individual’s perspective, which for some actual means life being predictability unpredictable; to some degree, I am, in part because I value the chance to improvise, but anyone that knows me would say that’s predictable. As for population migration, statistics I had heard before, was roughly half of world’s po…

I am absolutely willing to buy the rationale based on personal anecdata, but wouldn't it also mean that the other half of the world's population does ( as in, it is basically a coin toss as to whether or move or not)?

I might be conflating some word meanings here so please correct me as needed.

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