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Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

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Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#391

Post by prof-dr-ir »

mordae wrote: post #275
skrebbel wrote: post #261

Any tips for what an EU citizen can do against this, beyond upvoting this story on HN?

I think it's too late. https://european-pirateparty.eu/parliament-approves-chatcont... https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/

Your first link talks about a specific derogation approved by the EU parliament. It provides an exemption to the ePrivacy directive, which allows for (existing) searches for child sexual abuse material by major content providers to remain legal. Without this exemption these searches would apparently be in violation of the ePrivacy directive.

You can read the derogation here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... . There is a somewhat helpful first page that provides context.

Personally I think it is quite a reasonable derogation; the pirate party clearly disagrees.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#392

Post by Laaas »

zerodensity wrote: post #312
Laaas wrote: post #219

If this goes through I will personally leave EU, and I wouldn't be surprised if others do too. What reason is there to remain in the EU? It being a regulatory superpower [0]? Metaphorical lol. [0]: https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_the_eu_as_a_digital_regul...

Where would you go?

Any country in the top-50 of GDP (PPP) per capita would likely work well, but I would personally likely go to Hong Kong or one of the Arabic countries.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#393

Post by ComodoHacker »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #310
ComodoHacker wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anyone who is really into something illegal will use something alternative anyway. That's the hard part, IMO. Imagine that we really got that "decentralized system that cannot be controlled" going and everyone is using it. Everyone, including those who is into illegal things. And they don't get caught. Now the government starts to push their "this decentralized shit is doing more harm than good" agenda. Whatever the…

Criminals are using encrypted communications right now, though. The harm is already real. Now, I have a cryptography library to polish.

They are not widespread now, though. The government is keeping their communications under control, more or less. Only most educated criminals have good enough opsec. The gov can subpoena whatever service they use today and disrupt their communications without disrupting everyone else's. They don't have so called collateral privacy. The 'encrypted' part doesn't really add much harm.

With truly decentralized system things would be different.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#394

Post by t0bia_s »

chopin wrote: post #388
olddustytrail wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't happen in every country and region. In many places there's no such thing as a "ruling class". Politicians are just another type of public sector worker and certainly not the best paid or wealthiest.

Where would that be? I live in Europe and I don't think there is a country where politicians aren't corrupt.

As European living in country with highest inflation rate I must agree. What annoys me a lot is a trending narration about blaming Putin for everything. Ministry of interior has leaked manuals where is writen guide for public relations about it. Basically it says that media need to blame Putin for hungry and problems with food supply chain.

https://www.mvcr.cz/soubor/krit-memo-putin-hlad-komunikacni-...

If you search for articles, they are writen following this guide exactly.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=putin+a+hlad

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#395

Post by irusensei »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #355
ur-whale wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best way to deal with this is non-compliance and there need to be technical solutions to deny such attempts. I disagree. While these are good to have, they are not enough. The reason is always the same: if you are found to be using the circumventing tech., you'll likely be in breach of the law, which will give the goons a legitimate reason to come and harass you. In a civilized country, that can translate into…

Sometimes I think we have romanticized civil disobedience a little too much. Not because having authoritarian laws is good, but because it seems like some people would rather be heroic resistance fighters than engage dry policy work and advocacy. It would be better to never live under bad laws at all.

> people would rather be heroic resistance fighters than engage dry policy work and advocacy

Isn't it tiring? I mean you can raise hell and get some picture but you know one or 4 years from now they will try the same bullshit with a different name until it works.

You are wasting your time and energy on activism while there are crooks literally getting paid (by your money) to degrade your life. I think that time and energy should be best spent building things which are immune to power abuse.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#396

Post by intrasight »

dns_snek wrote: post #348
kwanbix wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if everything is encrypted, how do you expect the police to catch ped0philes, for example?

State of the art encryption has become so widespread and well known that anyone with the tiniest interest in privacy can download one of the hundreds of open source E2EE messaging platforms to use for their criminal activities. This line of thinking has always struck me as extremely odd - as soon as current, presumably E2EE, methods of communication are tapped into for intelligence and law enforcement purposes, crimi…

borrowing from gun reasoning, if encryption is made a crime, then only criminals will use encryption.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#397

Post by seanw444 »

olddustytrail wrote: post #381
carlosjobim wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goons will come and harass you if you are inconvenient or a threat to the ruling class, even if you are complying with all existing regulations. This happens in every country and region. For the common man non-compliance is the only non-violent way to preserve his rights or exercise freedom. You can do it successfully if you are smart and agile.

No it doesn't happen in every country and region. In many places there's no such thing as a "ruling class". Politicians are just another type of public sector worker and certainly not the best paid or wealthiest.

In a perfect world.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#398

Post by irusensei »

dijit wrote: post #26
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #20

As a pro-EU citizen I feel more and more inclined to agree on some of the Brexit rhetoric. Commissioners have shown multiple times that they are too permeable to lobbying, too willing to water down tough environmental regulation, and too keen on 'security' surveillance. So far the EU parliament members have balanced the act with some sanity. But the power and lack of transparency of the EC both with regards to lobbyi…

EU Parliament has nothing to do with this proposal. It's proposed by the EU Commission, and such things have been struck down by the Parliament before. Also: Britain hardly has any leg to stand on regarding privacy (which is something the EU usually has a focus on[0]). Did you forget the Snoopers Charter[1]? That isn't a proposal. That's law. [0]: https://gdpr.eu [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Power…

> It's proposed by the EU Commission, and such things have been struck down by the Parliament before.

Like article 13?

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#399

Post by O__________O »

browningstreet wrote: post #358
O__________O wrote: post #179

Strangest thing to me about the topic is that it’s obvious vast percentage of citizens within democracies wish they lived in an authoritarian country, yet choose to live in a democracy and use the liberties they’re provided to actively destabilize and destroy it. To me this is the largest issue, not a given topic that results from it. Yes, I am aware current authoritarian countries wage propaganda campaigns, but in m…

Most people voting/supporting these kinds of things believe there is a dastardly "other" that this will apply to more than it will apply to them. There are plenty of recent political endeavors where this was extremely obvious and loudly detailed and, yet... So much of the large-scale political nastiness these days isn't because a rising minority wants to enforce fair rules that everyone has to abide by together. They…

Agree. Another possibility (or possibly expansion of your points) is that people feel that they are being responsible by amplifying the predictability of their current environment without realizing the potential for it to destabilize it instead. Honestly puzzled by topic and it’s one that spent a lot of time and effort trying to impact. Ultimately, I want to believe people understand they’re making an informed choice, but obviously concerned and puzzled by the pattern, which is neither new, nor likely to fade away, especially as AI‘s role advances in societies. That said, I have hope, and believe future is truly open to those willing to take the time to make a positive difference.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#400

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

O__________O wrote: post #270
pessimizer wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s obvious vast percentage of citizens within democracies wish they lived in an authoritarian country, yet choose to live in a democracy Most people don't get to choose where they live. It's really a relatively tiny percentage of the population who would have the financial ability and/or skills to emigrate, and those are really the people you're talking about. They have no loyalty to where they live because they…

Understand your point, though disagree. My understanding is the majority of people on Earth stay within days walking distance from where they grew up. Further, there are numerous countries that if they wanted could easily cover the costs related to relocating anyone that desired to leave another country. I would argue the real explanation is most likely regardless of person’s situation, most want a predictable future…

I think both you and parent are right to an extent. Both are, in fact, factor when it comes to a person staying within a certain distance of their birthplace. I did move and pretty far by most standards, but I did have both opportunity and some support to do just that. I am not entirely certain I would do the same without it. On the other hand, I was young and predictability was the least of my considerations. Come to think of it, I wanted to break free of the predictable pattern within my own familial social circle.

That said, I do value predictability and stability now, but being young has its own rights and values. I guess what I am saying is that we need to look at it as more than just x or y. There are multiple reasons for moving and lots of reason people choose to remain where they currently are. If pressed for one, I would argue convenience or maybe 'devil known'.

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