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Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

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Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#381

Post by olddustytrail »

carlosjobim wrote: post #64
ur-whale wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best way to deal with this is non-compliance and there need to be technical solutions to deny such attempts. I disagree. While these are good to have, they are not enough. The reason is always the same: if you are found to be using the circumventing tech., you'll likely be in breach of the law, which will give the goons a legitimate reason to come and harass you. In a civilized country, that can translate into…

The goons will come and harass you if you are inconvenient or a threat to the ruling class, even if you are complying with all existing regulations. This happens in every country and region. For the common man non-compliance is the only non-violent way to preserve his rights or exercise freedom. You can do it successfully if you are smart and agile.

No it doesn't happen in every country and region. In many places there's no such thing as a "ruling class". Politicians are just another type of public sector worker and certainly not the best paid or wealthiest.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#382

Post by zelphirkalt »

ethbr0 wrote: post #41
can16358p wrote: post #10

We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity. Privacy is a human right. We probably all know that they will show reasons like "fighting terrorism", "preventing national threats" or "hunting down child pornography" etc, whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. Anyone who is really…

> We probably all know that they will show reasons [...], whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. I don't think this is how it works, absent an already existent police state. In democracies, it really is pushed for {good reasons}. Once built, it's then used by law enforcement, because it exists and gets the job done. Pretending there's…

There is a "them" though: Tech giants. And they are pushing/lobbying hard with their huge financial reserves, which they extracted from clueless uninformed masses. A company like Google would love for all privacy protections to disappear tomorrow, because of the riches they can amass then. It is simply capitalism and greed at work.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#383

Post by O__________O »

klabb3 wrote: post #374
O__________O wrote: post #179

Strangest thing to me about the topic is that it’s obvious vast percentage of citizens within democracies wish they lived in an authoritarian country, yet choose to live in a democracy and use the liberties they’re provided to actively destabilize and destroy it. To me this is the largest issue, not a given topic that results from it. Yes, I am aware current authoritarian countries wage propaganda campaigns, but in m…

For reference, many years ago when a similar surveillance law was implemented in Sweden (the FRA law), 90% of people were against it (in random polling) but politicians voted it in anyway. It later turned out this was a diplomatic back channel direct order from the US, which was found out through that big Wikileaks dump. So, the people are not at fault in these situations imo. First, it’s politicians and after that i…

Regardless of what form of government is currently ruling a given country, ultimately the people within it are responsible for the actions taken by the government, not the government itself.

As for your other point, I agree, free balanced independent journalism, whistleblower, leaks, etc - play a clear role in insuring public stays informed.

That said, in my opinion, if 90% percent of a population was against something, but they passively allowed it to happen, it is no one’s fault but there own. I don’t for a second believe average person does not understand they have a choice over who rules them and how, even if that choice is to fight to the death to defend that right, flee the area, or for that matter, simply do whatever they’re told to do.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#384

Post by thomastjeffery »

Here in the comments I see dozens of instances of the same argument: is legislation like this the result of malicious power-grabbing conspiracy or the blind social fear of out-groups?

Either way, the conclusion is the same: government-run mass surveillance gets proposed and taken (politically) seriously. It's impossible to use that conclusion alone as evidence for either side of this argument, yet that is precisely what most of the comments here are trying to do!

It's such a pointless argument to be had. There is no utility in either answer.

It's impossible to fight a conspiracy without constructive evidence, and if a conspiracy is using propaganda to increase fear (as opposed to that fear being organic), then fighting that propaganda directly (as opposed to fighting the fear itself) requires knowledge of the propaganda's source, which itself is evidence of conspiracy!

Right now, both perspectives seem likely to be valid, but choosing one over the other is pointless. We are stuck fighting a single conclusion: fear itself; so we may as well focus our energy on that.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#385

Post by macrolocal »

ethbr0 wrote: post #365
macrolocal wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gadflies play a critical role in the ecosystem! :)

Mhmm. And what separates a gadfly from not-gadfly?

Gadflies target Bellerophons obviously.

It your steed can't handle a few gadflies, riding off to Mount Olympus is irresponsible.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#386

Post by anthonypasq »

dingusdew wrote: post #202
O__________O wrote: post #179

Strangest thing to me about the topic is that it’s obvious vast percentage of citizens within democracies wish they lived in an authoritarian country, yet choose to live in a democracy and use the liberties they’re provided to actively destabilize and destroy it. To me this is the largest issue, not a given topic that results from it. Yes, I am aware current authoritarian countries wage propaganda campaigns, but in m…

Unpopular opinion: If you don't like democracy and use your democratic rights to actively work to dismantle it, you probably shouldn't actually be allowed to participate in democracy since you are operating in bad faith.

seems like you dont like democracy lol. If the members of a democratic country dont want a democracy anymore, that seems within their rights.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#387

Post by splitstud »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #2

The best way to deal with this is non-compliance and there need to be technical solutions to deny such attempts. One major factor that works against users is central authentication. Schemes like oauth2 might bring convenience and security in many cases, but will endanger net freedom overall. Google just added age restriction on blogger. Result is that you need to provide Google with ID information to access some cont…

[dead]

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#388

Post by chopin »

olddustytrail wrote: post #381
carlosjobim wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goons will come and harass you if you are inconvenient or a threat to the ruling class, even if you are complying with all existing regulations. This happens in every country and region. For the common man non-compliance is the only non-violent way to preserve his rights or exercise freedom. You can do it successfully if you are smart and agile.

No it doesn't happen in every country and region. In many places there's no such thing as a "ruling class". Politicians are just another type of public sector worker and certainly not the best paid or wealthiest.

Where would that be?

I live in Europe and I don't think there is a country where politicians aren't corrupt.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#389

Post by mjburgess »

danenania wrote: post #335
mjburgess wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalism is such an ubiquitous and powerful ideology, we don't realise that pretty much everyone today is an extreme nationalist. Before "nations" people didnt regard borders, states, etc. as they do today. "citizenship" of a "nation" is a relatively recent phenomenon. Most today think it's a good-and-fitting thing to defend "one's country". And this impulse is vastly more powerful than defending "democracy". Who…

I don't think Ukraine is a good example of your point, as apart from being a war between two nations, it is clearly also a war between democratic and authoritarian belief systems. That ideological divide is a large part of what sparked it in the first place--the whole thing began with mass pro-democracy demonstrations that ousted an authoritarian leader. My perception is that Ukrainians know what it's like to live un…

> I don't think you'd see anything close to this level of resistance if victory would mean an authoritarian Ukraine rather than a democratic Ukraine.

Ah, well: I do.

I think this has extraordinarily little to do with any "political system", of which Ukraine and Russia were both quite similar.

One Nation invaded another, and in such moments people's nationalism is trigged. One defends' "one's own nation" regardless.

This is a vastly more powerful reaction than any intellectual-sentimental philosophy. This "Nation" is "Ours" and not "Yours".

Indeed, the heart of the matter is that Russia isnt nationalist. They're still operating in a pre-National era of loose ethnicities being "of a common group" and hence do not think these borders matter so much.

What russia hasnt fully understood is that essentially the rest of the world has become nationalist, whilst it still operates under an ethnic-imperial model.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#390

Post by anfogoat »

zirgs wrote: post #148
anfogoat wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU commissioners propose laws, they don't vote for them. The distinction isn't meaningless but it's certainly a generous one when left to stand on its own. The commissioners hold little allegiance to the spirit of democracy and these proposals are either career boosters or pet projects for them. They're not just going to pass it on to the parliament and leave it at that. They're going to do their best to finagle be…

>No modern government will pass a law that grants its citizens more privacy. GDPR was passed not that long ago.

> GDPR was passed not that long ago.

Sorry, I should have been more careful. It's a citizen versus a consumer thing; GDPR is about the latter and does not give you any real privacy gains in regards to your government except in areas where your relationship is business like.

Some Menial Low-Stakes Agency is required to handle your email and address details appropriately, sure, but meanwhile Europol was still able to mass collect data and have the Commission cover for them after they were found out.

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