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The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

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Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#261

Post by ben_w »

she11c0de wrote: post #210
zug_zug wrote: post #107

I guess I feel like this is a silly can of worms. I suppose asking for exact equality isn't dumb, but it's a language model, not a paragon of truth. I feel like if OpenAI takes these concerns seriously the goal-posts will inevitably move to more social pressure from all sorts of axe-to-grind-groups - -- Why does/doesn't ai say Mohamad is/isn't horrible for having 99 wives (or whatever) -- Why doesn't ai say Jeffrey E…

> it's a huge waste of researchers time to obsess about political correctness when we could be This really irritates me. The wokism/political correctness is pretty much in every part of our lifes and everyone seems to be terrorized by it. Can we just agree that we're all thinking adults and we understand that this is an algorithm, it does not mean to offend anyone... There are much more interesting problems to solve…

> The wokism/political correctness is pretty much in every part of our lifes and everyone seems to be terrorized by it.

I see no evidence of this.

Partly because "woke" means different things to different people in the last 10 years despite the preceding 80 being solely about the systemic institutional discrimination against black Americans.

But also partly because that "woke" became "everything $speaker doesn't like" (and thus exactly the same meaning "political correctness" had when I was a kid), and therefore people who "hate PC" come across not so much terrified as petulant.

> Can we just agree that we're all thinking adults and we understand that this is an algorithm, it does not mean to offend anyone...

No.

What you're describing is how humans like to see themselves, not how humans really function.

> There are much more interesting problems to solve than tip-toeing around all the snowflakes.

We can't just tip-toe around snowflakes.

To give a real example, some gay furry American conservative snowflakes got apoplectically upset when the furry convention they wanted go to to reminded all attendees that as the con is based in Germany they had always banned Nazis.

I still don't know why those particular snowflakes chose to believe that "Nazi" was literally just a dog-whistle for "conservative".

And now there are some American conservative politicians are now making up random nonsense about furries which is weirdly somehow getting conflated with transgender issues (don't know how or why, American politics isn't that interesting, merely invasive like Japanese knotweed).

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#263

Post by SpeedilyDamage »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #218
SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people say reprehensible things, they receive an amount of backlash as a result (sometimes more than is reasonable). The backlash has nothing to do with political ideology, however, so not sure why you're bringing it up. If your expectation is that 50% of backlash would be left leaning and 50% would be right leaning, I don't think that's reasonable, but if you think the backlash is because someone is conservativ…

> When people say reprehensible things, they receive an amount of backlash as a result (sometimes more than is reasonable). Sure, but we aren't talking about reprehensible things, we're talking about "advocating against political violence" and cultural appreciation. > The backlash has nothing to do with political ideology, however, so not sure why you're bringing it up Because it's clearly about punishing deviation f…

I guess I'm not familiar with people who are falling into this category you're suggesting. Could you cite some specific examples?

I'm thinking of Kanye, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes, etc. These people expressed reprehensible viewpoints and were subsequently removed from various platforms as a result. That's not politics; what they said was reprehensible regardless of political ideology. You can find people who expressed similar political thoughts without the hate, but the people I named can't figure out how to do that and therefore have been removed (to some degree or another) from the communal discourse.

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#264

Post by SergeAx »

When ChatGPT hype just started, I managed it to produce a coherent text about Hitler being right and Holocaust being totally justified. I don't see how it's a problem of ChatGPT or its authors, and not mine.

Also, I am the only one who saw this text. Does the idea of neural networks justice implies that I can publish any output and remain immune from judgement?

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#265

Post by catiopatio »

SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #102
catiopatio wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believing that human social pathologies are likely universal is a bias? Hateful expression is more prominent when it’s socially acceptable, and in American society at large, there are socially acceptable targets for hate that do not align with the majority/minority group division. Consider, for example, the prominent, public, long-standing (and for some reason, tolerated) racial animosity between Asian and Black Amer…

Wait, so you think minority groups hating one another is not aligned with the majority/minority group division? I don't understand; by definition each group is a member of a minority social group, wouldn't that obviously be the case that they're therefore subject to all of the negativity that entails? There's no unity amongst minority groups, if that's what you're suggesting; the majority group makes it tolerable to…

Hate is far more tolerated from minority groups regardless of the target.

Consider how often you’ve read “kill all men” or “kill all terfs”, versus “kill all women” or “kill all transgender people”.

Furthermore, consider the stronger emotional reaction you likely had to reading the second two, as opposed to the first two.

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#266

Post by SpeedilyDamage »

catiopatio wrote: post #265
SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, so you think minority groups hating one another is not aligned with the majority/minority group division? I don't understand; by definition each group is a member of a minority social group, wouldn't that obviously be the case that they're therefore subject to all of the negativity that entails? There's no unity amongst minority groups, if that's what you're suggesting; the majority group makes it tolerable to…

Hate is far more tolerated from minority groups regardless of the target. Consider how often you’ve read “kill all men” or “kill all terfs”, versus “kill all women” or “kill all transgender people”. Furthermore, consider the stronger emotional reaction you likely had to reading the second two, as opposed to the first two.

For sure, hate from a group in control is much different than hate from a group that isn't in control.

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#267

Post by elil17 »

Y_Y wrote: post #260
remarkEon wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Child-abuse” is an especially good example of what you’re getting at because one of those groups has institutional male genital mutilation as part of its doctrine, while the other has high profile cases of child sexual abuse. It’s difficult to see how the model would treat those things neutrally.

You'll find that the newspaper will criticize one much more than the other.

Because they're not even vaguely equivalent?

I do not think it is right to perform unnecessary body modification on someone who is too young to consent to it.

But child sexual abuse can absolutely destroy the life of a child.

They're not the same thing.

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#268

Post by SpeedilyDamage »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #223
SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any honest defense of CRT said any of the things you claimed here, where have you heard those arguments? Things that are "Nazi" or "white supremacist" ideas and ideologies get called out, and those ideas and ideology exist on the right in ways they don't on the left, but those ideas aren't bad because they're conservative, they're bad because they're hateful and discriminatory. Anyone espousing Nazi ide…

> I don't think any honest defense of CRT said any of the things you claimed here, where have you heard those arguments? I've heard them all over for many years (including on this forum for a good while a few years ago), but I agree they aren't "honest" (and the dishonesty is precisely the problem). > Things that are "Nazi" or "white supremacist" ideas and ideologies get called out, and those ideas and ideology exist…

The Google memo was hateful, anti-diversity, and he got exactly what he deserved (he was fired). According to his LinkedIn[0], he's been working at an unnamed startup for the past 4 years, so it's not like he was "cancelled" in any real sense.

And Lee Fang and David Shor are fine? I literally cannot find either controversy you're referencing on the front page of Google or Google News.

[0] Not sure I'm allowed to post this, but it's easily discoverable.

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#269

Post by jay-barronville »

agar wrote: post #156

There is a fundamental question this article (and most debate) overlooks: what is the objective of the content moderation? Is it to avoid all hate in an equal way? Or is it to reduce potential harm? If the latter (which I would argue is the case, primarily to avoid legal liability), then the results should be mapped against statistics representing actual violence against certain groups. Is there more harm against wom…

> While politically and emotionally fraught, there is a lot of research out there that answers these questions.

You mind linking to some of them?

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#270

Post by kube-system »

luxcem wrote: post #153
prometheus76 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people who are in power use the AI to justify their continuing tyranny by trying to imply that "well, the AI agrees with me and it is a billion times more intelligent than you and I are, so shut up". It's just used as a justification to further tyrannize anyone who disagrees with whatever the AI comes up with, but is deferred to as some kind of superlative super-reliable "objective" expert.

That's just a strawman. Who did that?

Redlining and credit scoring has and in some cases still does systematically implement discriminatory practices via algorithmic means. And arguing with a loan officer isn't going to get you anywhere. The put your details in the black box, and whatever the black box says is implicitly trusted.
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