Live data from Hacker News

A manifesto on shower temperature control

benholmen.com

21–30 of 176 posts

Re: A manifesto on shower temperature control

#22
This is a result of the valve construction - you have a cold water pipe and a hot water pipe coming in, and the knob/lever is connected directly to a single valve that controls volumetrically how much the flows mix. This arrangement is both cheap to manufacture and easy to install and repair.

Adding proportional control isn't too hard. Certainly an easy option would be actuating the valve electronically and just using an encoder in the knob to control it digitally. There are a lot of advantages to this, such as being able to automatically comp for actual water temperatures and customizing settings for personal preference, but it's understandable that people might feel uneasy about a cheap electronic device in close proximity to the water they are in. I'd point out that this hasn't stopped us from putting things like lights in our showers which by necessity draw much more power, but some may still be concerned. More likely it is the lack of experience with electronics that valve manufacturers and plumbers have that make them hesitant to change.

For a mechanical solution, you could transmit the torque via a gearbox instead of a direct shaft. Switch gears to get higher or lower resolution control. You can even have a single set of gears with variable diameter sections to have higher precision in a fixed subsection of the range. Unfortunately this would not allow for easy adjustment for an individual installation, nonetheless different people using the same shower. The increase in manufacturing cost and installation complexity would probably not be huge, but in such a high competition commodity market it would be noticeable.

But solving the real issue, a lack of fine control in the important range, is actually much easier to solve. Just make the handle on the knob longer/larger diameter. Especially if you just want to modify an existing installation, attaching an 18 inch handle onto the existing knob is something just about anyone could do in a few minutes. For precise control, grip it on the outside, for fast large changes, choke up on it. For the OEM, a design with a long handle is pennies more expensive to produce at scale, easily justified for even a very small competitive advantage. Maybe some people really like the aesthetics of a small handle, but I've never once heard someone complain a shower handle was too big. I still think the electronic controller option is better, as you can deal with other shower temperature control problems like the long heat up times of the pipes and the variable ideal water temperature at different points in the shower, but the perfect can be the enemy of the good enough. Frankly it's just weird that I can't seem to find a shower handle longer than about 6 inches available for sale right now in a quick google search.

Re: A manifesto on shower temperature control

#23

I have a kind of powerful dirt bike. People put “throttle cams” on them for this same reason. Usually you want small adjustments within the lower range of power. When you want the majority of power you usually want close to all of it. Throttle cams are basically an off-center circle. At lower throttle you’re pulling a smaller circle and the throttle moves less. Then when the throttle is opened up you’re pulling a big…

Now I want one of those for my car!

Re: A manifesto on shower temperature control

#24
post #17

Ah yes, showers that have frigid, cold, and scalding settings, and not much in the way of warm. This is is usually because the hot supply is under relatively less pressure, going through a tank and more pipes. So, nice and warm means hot is almost fully open and cold almost fully closed, to get an equal mix of both. Very little room to work with. The right flow restrictor on the cold supply will make midway an even m…

In a correctly plumbed system there should not be a significant pressure differential on the hot and cold sides. When done correctly (upsized feed from the utility) with balanced loops or a manifold flushing the toilet shouldn't effect shower pressure or temperature at all.

I can testify to that because in our house it works that way. The only time a shower is affected is when filling the large bathtub - which fills much faster than in most homes because it has a very large feed but that's the tradeoff since there isn't enough volume from the utility in that one case. Otherwise people can flush toilets, use the kitchen sink, wash clothes, etc and showers are not affected whatsoever.

Another factor is insulation - even many modern homes don't insulate the hot water pipes so even with an instant hot water heater that responds quickly you still have to pay the lost heat cost of warming the pipes and everything the pipes touch before the temperature fully stabilizes. This is a cost-saving measure - there is no reason the pipes couldn't be insulated. If you throw in a recirc pump then you can have instant hot water at every tap with very low energy cost.

Re: A manifesto on shower temperature control

#26
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Regular thermostatic valves do not provide perfect regulation but they do in fact provide a fairly stable output temperature regardless of cold and hot water temperature, by entirely mechanical means. I have a cheap IKEA shower control and output temp is stable for the full duration of my shower even though cold nor hot water supply is stable due to a shower drain heat recovery unit. The article is mainly about…

Are cheap thermostatic shower mixer controls not so common outside middle-of-europe? This is the one with one grip that lets you set the temperature, and the other sets the flow rate. It'll (try to) hold the output temperature steady even if the input temperature varies a bit.

In my experience (US), they seem to be uncommon in residential properties. I've seen them in many hotels, though.

Re: A manifesto on shower temperature control

#27

I think the current ones are the way they are because the input temperature is not well controlled. I live in an old farmhouse where the cold water gets really cold in the winter and for years we've had a tankless water heater that has never worked that well but lately has gotten full of scales. We haven't tried descaling it because we're concerned that we'll kill it in the process of descaling it and won't try it un…

Another problem is the difference of pressure between the cold and hot water tubes. It's usually not to much, but I remember than in one hotel the difference was so big that if I opened both taps normally, I only got cold water. Moreover, the cold water entered into the hot water tube, so after closing the cold water tap I got only cold water coming from the faucet for a while. The solution was to open the hot water tap completely, and make a tiny turn in the cold water tap.

Re: A manifesto on shower temperature control

#28
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can change the top end by lowering the temperature of your hot water heater. We have ours set at 120. Using a lower hot water temperature is a way to give you a wider range of useful temperatures. In texas during the summer we often take showers with no hot water (or very little hot water).

> you can change the top end by lowering the temperature of your hot water heater. We have ours set at 120 I’m not sure that’s a good idea. 120F is in the danger zone for Legionnaires' disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionnaires%27_disease#Preven... : “Keep water temperature either above or below the 20–50 °C (68–122 °F) range in which the Legionella bacterium thrives.”

Interesting. On the other hand, when bringing a newborn home from the hospital, the take-home literature instructs new parents to turn the water heater down to 120 F to prevent risk of scalding.

Re: A manifesto on shower temperature control

#29
post #25

Yikes, the max temp is 140F. That’s dangerous and has been a code violation for a long time, for good reason: https://www.pmengineer.com/articles/94780-upc-continues-to-e...

This would depend on the temperature of your hot water feed, which is likely much lower.

It’s like having a speedometer in your car that goes to 180 mph.

Re: A manifesto on shower temperature control

#30
post #25

Yikes, the max temp is 140F. That’s dangerous and has been a code violation for a long time, for good reason: https://www.pmengineer.com/articles/94780-upc-continues-to-e...

This would depend on the temperature of your hot water feed, which is likely much lower. It’s like having a speedometer in your car that goes to 180 mph.

Also we have body sensors which detect acute over-temperature situations and cause us to remediate the situation before damage can occur. Usually while screaming something profane.
Post reply on HN