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Japanese explained to programmers

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Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#391

Post by agalunar »

ickoonite wrote: post #345
agalunar wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mm, I think it could come up quite naturally as "she must have been being watched" in something like: Two detectives are watching security film. DETECTIVE 1 And then from 9:07 to 9:14 she started acting very cautiously, but – Detective 1 rewinds the tape by a few seconds and gestures at the screen. DETECTIVE 1 – from this angle you can tell that she's making an effort to not seem suspicious. I wonder why? DETECTIVE 2…

I have read the “must have had been being” over and over again and as a native English speaker, I still can’t understand what it means. I hesitate to call it ungrammatical, but instead throw down a challenge: can you actually use it?

Sure! Using "had been" rather than "(has) been" indicates that something may no longer be the case, e.g. "she's been well (and still is)" versus "she had been well (but is not necessarily still well)". So in my example

  She must've been being watched.
suggests that, at that point in the security footage, she might still be being watched. If the detective had said

  She must have had been being watched.
it would additionally imply that, at that point in the security footage, she was no longer being watched (but had been). So let me rework the story a bit:

  Two detectives are watching security film.

    DETECTIVE 1
  She's acting ordinarily, but I see fatigue written on her face. I wonder why.

  Detective 1 leans back in their chair and muses.

    DETECTIVE 2
  She must've had been being watched. The state security service monitors high-profile civilians occasionally, and a few days before this she was acting very cautiously, almost as if she was suspicious of something.
(Also, I think I falsely portrayed the universality of such a construction. Although I think some native English speakers would accept it as grammatical, many might not!)

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#392

Post by ickoonite »

agalunar wrote: post #391
ickoonite wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read the “must have had been being” over and over again and as a native English speaker, I still can’t understand what it means. I hesitate to call it ungrammatical, but instead throw down a challenge: can you actually use it?

Sure! Using "had been" rather than "(has) been" indicates that something may no longer be the case, e.g. "she's been well (and still is)" versus "she had been well (but is not necessarily still well)". So in my example She must've been being watched. suggests that, at that point in the security footage, she might still be being watched. If the detective had said She must have had been being watched. it would addition…

No, this is just wrong. You are conflating two tenses. Must can be present (be) or perfect (have).

In the example above, you would say: “She must have been being watched.”

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#393

Post by agalunar »

ickoonite wrote: post #392
agalunar wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure! Using "had been" rather than "(has) been" indicates that something may no longer be the case, e.g. "she's been well (and still is)" versus "she had been well (but is not necessarily still well)". So in my example She must've been being watched. suggests that, at that point in the security footage, she might still be being watched. If the detective had said She must have had been being watched. it would addition…

No, this is just wrong. You are conflating two tenses. Must can be present (be) or perfect (have). In the example above, you would say: “She must have been being watched.”

To my ears, there's a difference!

  I am watched.            (present passive)
  I was watched.           (past passive)
  I have been watched.     (present perfect passive)
  I had been watched.      (past perfect passive)

  I am being watched.      (present progressive passive)
  I was being watched.     (past progressive passive)
  I've been being watched. (present perfect progressive passive)
  I'd been being watched.  (past perfect progressive passive)

  I must be watched.
  I must have been watched.
  I must have been watched.
  I must have had been watched.

  I must be being watched.
  I must've been being watched.
  I must've been being watched.
  I must've had been being watched.
I think is roughly it? Although now I'm beginning to doubt myself, and maybe it is just:

  I must be watched.
  I must have been watched.
  I must have been watched.
  I must have been watched.

  I must be being watched.
  I must've been being watched.
  I must've been being watched.
  I must've been being watched.
or really, maybe it's better to say those forms don't exist:

  I must be watched.
  I must have been watched.
  —
  —

  I must be being watched.
  I must've been being watched.
  —
  —
What's neat is that I can assign meaning to "must've 'd been", but it really teeters on the edge, sometimes sounding strange but acceptable and sometimes sounding simply wrong.

I can't find many examples of it, but there are a few I've found online:

"To qualify for a special enrollment due to a permanent move, you must have had been enrolled in other minimum essential coverage, such as under a job-based health plan, another Marketplace plan, or Medicaid."

"Sales must have had been in the same year as the tax return."

So perhaps it's best to say it's nonstandard but attested.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#394

Post by LZ_Khan »

kyorochan wrote: post #386
LZ_Khan wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese has easier character pronunciations? I find it hard to believe that. The tones are what makes Chinese the hardest language to learn. Most people who learn Chinese will never be able to sound Chinese. To Chinese people they will look like some fool who has learning deficits (I know this is not true, but the lack of empathy in mono-cultural nations is quite high). I don't think there's any language in the top 2…

As @presentation already mentioned, Japanese pronunciation has more layers to it than you think. Additionally, I think a foreigner who actually puts time into practicing Chinese pronunciation can sound very close to native. Most people learning most languages seem to only aim for good enough pronunciation and then focus on acquiring vocabulary instead. I don't know what languages you speak, but I speak a good amount…

I'm fluent in Chinese and intermediate in Japanese. I'm aware of pitch accent but it's nowhere near as hard as tones. And one thing to be aware of is a compliment is quite relative if you're a foreigner speaking their language. "Nihongo jozu" is a pretty well-known meme and applies to Chinese as well.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#395

Post by g9yuayon »

iopq wrote: post #354
g9yuayon wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mother tongue is Chinese and I find that English is the easiest second language to learn. English has more or less the same grammatical structure as Chinese, so I didn't have to learn structures like object -> subject -> verb as in Spanish or reflexive verbs or structures like "Me pleases programming" (Me gusta programar) that means "I like programming", or the sentence structure of topic -> object -> verb with al…

The Spanish sentence is exactly like the English sentence "Programming is pleasing to me", it's the same grammar and it exists

The structure is different, right? "Me gusta algo" does mean something is pleasing to me, but it's not the way how one would think in Chinese or English.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#396

Post by ickoonite »

agalunar wrote: post #393
ickoonite wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is just wrong. You are conflating two tenses. Must can be present (be) or perfect (have). In the example above, you would say: “She must have been being watched.”

To my ears, there's a difference! I am watched. (present passive) I was watched. (past passive) I have been watched. (present perfect passive) I had been watched. (past perfect passive) I am being watched. (present progressive passive) I was being watched. (past progressive passive) I've been being watched. (present perfect progressive passive) I'd been being watched. (past perfect progressive passive) I must be watc…

Oh my. You have got yourself in quite a pickle. “Must have had been” is simply wrong; in your examples, it should always be “must have been”.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#397

Post by ickoonite »

ezconnect wrote: post #388
bamboozled wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if this argument holds water in 2023, "tech" for example is well behind in Japan. I guess the world is a more connected place now. I love the language though so I'm personally happy if it sticks around.

Huh? I don't think they are behind technology. There are lots of technology only Japan can provide.

The stereotype of Japan as technologically advanced persists in the West despite abundant evidence to the contrary.

Japan still uses floppy disks and fax machines. They prefer to pay in cash and will go to the bank to get crisp, fresh notes - to give old notes would be disrespectful. Banking in Japan - indeed, experience with any kind of bureaucracy at all there - makes the US DMV, or indeed any Western bureaucracy, look like the vanguard of efficiency.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#398

Post by ezconnect »

ickoonite wrote: post #397
ezconnect wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? I don't think they are behind technology. There are lots of technology only Japan can provide.

The stereotype of Japan as technologically advanced persists in the West despite abundant evidence to the contrary. Japan still uses floppy disks and fax machines. They prefer to pay in cash and will go to the bank to get crisp, fresh notes - to give old notes would be disrespectful. Banking in Japan - indeed, experience with any kind of bureaucracy at all there - makes the US DMV, or indeed any Western bureaucracy,…

I live in Japan, they do love cash and I do too (less government control and a safety haven) but they are not way behind on tech compared to the west.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#399

Post by agalunar »

ickoonite wrote: post #396
agalunar wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my ears, there's a difference! I am watched. (present passive) I was watched. (past passive) I have been watched. (present perfect passive) I had been watched. (past perfect passive) I am being watched. (present progressive passive) I was being watched. (past progressive passive) I've been being watched. (present perfect progressive passive) I'd been being watched. (past perfect progressive passive) I must be watc…

Oh my. You have got yourself in quite a pickle. “Must have had been” is simply wrong; in your examples, it should always be “must have been”.

> "Must have had been" is simply wrong; in your examples, it should always be "must have been".

As a matter of prescription, maybe, but as a matter of description? I think it's interesting. It is meaningful and it's something that English speakers produce. Here are other examples in the wild:

"To complete the request, the owner of the permit must have had been present at the time the citation was written, present a valid permit to the Tax Collector in person, have a copy of their citation, and pay a $7.50 processing fee to the Tax Collector if approved."

"Lankeshwar must have had been easy to defeat compared to new-age Ravanas."

It can even have a distinct meaning (rather than just being a variation), which is how I would interpret it. Which I think is cool.

It's perfectly fine to say "don't use this construction if you want to be taken seriously by so-and-so", but if its usage happens to be dialectal, for example, I don't think you can say those speakers are using their dialect of English incorrectly.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#400

Post by theaudacityofyw »

philsnow wrote: post #207
ickoonite wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there’s no limit on how many readings a kanji can get, people can randomly add new readings and popularize them. Precisely! It is insane. Song lyrics are a case in point. It is the height of erudition to contrive a novel way to write some verb or other. Furigana are essential for karaoke.

> Song lyrics are a case in point. It is the height of erudition to contrive a novel way to write some verb or other. This is intensely interesting -- do I understand this correctly, that what happens is a songwriter uses a verb (or I guess any word) and writes it down as a different set of kanji(+kana) than how it's usually written, and the new form is confusing at first to a reader of the lyrics, and the new form e…

Yes, you understand this correctly.

One good example is from GReeeeN's 愛唄(Aiuta/ Love Song). It's a song about a guy apologising for all the times he's fought with and been a nuisance to his partner, and reaffirming his love for them.

「君の選んだ人生「みち」は僕「ここ」よかったのか？」

Taken as you'd hear it from listening to the song, it means "Are you happy with the road you have chosen?", but reading the lyrics uses different kanji to give it a slightly broader meaning.

人生 is read as jinsei, meaning life, but the furigana is 道（みち）which is a road or a path, note that this can be a literal road or a more figurative pathway through life.

僕(boku) is a male pronoun for "me/myself" but ここ means "this" as in "this road, not that one"

It's not that deep, but it extends the meaning of the lyric to be something like "are you happy to spend the rest of your life with me?" I thought it was kinda clever. There's probably better examples, but this pops into my head often as it's still quite a popular song.

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