Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The World is Full of Real People

jumpstartlab.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 69 posts

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#21

Post by devs1010 »

mikeash wrote: post #9

The point that developers tend to live an extremely privileged life compared to the human average is an excellent one. However, I must strenuously object to the characterization of building tools for other developers as simply being self-pleasure. If developers really can do good things for society, then by helping other developers, am I not helping to achieve that goal? If software is useful, and I build something t…

Agreed. Its mind boggling to think about all the technologies a modern web developer is leveraging when they work on their projects and without these lower-level technologies their job would be much harder and less productive.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#22

Post by akavi »

tomjen3 wrote: post #13

Bullshit. The reason we don't have to worry about getting a job is because a computer programmer provide value and because we are good at it. So no we don't live a life of privilege. We worked for, and earned, our position.

I don't know the circumstances of your life, so maybe what you say is true, but at least in my case, I had huge advantages in reaching the point where I could provide said value:

1) I was born in a wealthy, stable country

2) to, even for said country, well-off parents

3) with a natural inclination to mathematics/logic

4) and access to computers/internet resources from a young age

All of these seem like privilege to me.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#23

Post by kahawe »

While the article is a nice and up-stirring read, I have to play devil's advocate here and ask:

So how many lives have garbagemen changed in the way OP talks about? How much impact do workers in a steel mill have? What about other simple but very common (and very necessary) jobs like the building maintenance and cleaning?

There are a lot of jobs out there that do not really directly advance society or change human lives on a large scale or have any other big impact but they still exist and people make a living off off them. And I would say most jobs are like that - (very) few people ever get the chance to actually do something truly great, meaningful and have real, direct impact on "real people".

And despite all that, what do I contribute to society although I am quite unimportant? I pay my taxes, my insurances and thereby contribute to not only my own well-being. And any software I might have written or I am maintaining is doing something useful somewhere in a very specific context and it helps people do their job which again has some impact on others and enables a company to exist and do something people are willing to spend money on and thereby that company offers jobs and etc...

Nothing wrong with being "just" a small wheel in the humongous machinery that is our world. If you ask me, it is actually (a much welcome and appreciated) luxury of modern life that we can allow space for all those "weirdos", all the diddling-around and all those strange new jobs that "real people" don't understand.

Also, it is pretty megalomaniac to assume everyone working "in IT" or reading HN is really such a rockstar and genius that they might find themselves in a position where they suddenly change the lives of thousands of people. Just because you know C or Javascript or Rails doesn't automatically make you a shining beacon of advancement of the human condition. Many people who are much, much smarter and better educated than you and me are living just as "unimportant" lives and will very likely never have a chance to become the next Einstein or Robert Koch. Learn to be more humble.

And countless scientists and artists who did change the way we think forever only did so long time after they were dead because during their lifetime, they were lucky not to get burned at the stake or starve to death in bitter poverty.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#24

Post by dxbydt »

tomhoward wrote: post #18
AznHisoka wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. However, there comes a point where we don't need yet another framework, or productivity app, or another project management tool. I also think the author is addressing people who build "thin value" startups as well, not just developer tools. Like Color, or Farmville, or Diaspora.

People who build things that "we don't need" get the message when no-one uses their product and they run out of money. But it's still a valuable process for them and everyone else, as long as they learn how to build things we do need.

I can strap on wings and jump out of a window and have a hard landing and break a few limbs and "get the message" that I shouldn't have jumped in the first place. To claim that jumping was a valuable process is a bit far fetched. I could have gotten that same lesson by simply taking a course in aerodynamics, or better yet, watching those black and white videos from the history channel of people in the 1900s doing similar stunts before the Wright brothers came along. Having worked at startups for a bunch of years & having interviewed with several others & speaking with their founders in person, I see a very distinct divide. The vast majority are building things "we don't need", throwing stuff at the wall and hoping something will stick. Purely from a statistical perspective, something will indeed stick. otoh the very tiny minority that are building stuff we do need are handicapped by too many factors to even have a remote chance of success.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#25

Post by tmh88j »

tomjen3 wrote: post #13

Bullshit. The reason we don't have to worry about getting a job is because a computer programmer provide value and because we are good at it. So no we don't live a life of privilege. We worked for, and earned, our position.

>The reason we don't have to worry about getting a job is because a computer programmer provide value and because we are good at it.

Just because you are talented at something doesn't equate to job security. Programming has nearly unlimited applications to add value because they can globalize nearly anything: music, travel, art, literature, etc... An average programmer has greater potential to impact more people than an incredible painter.

Most programmers do live a life of privilige. The word privilege doesn't always a negative connotation; people interchage it with spoiled and don't give it a second thought.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#26

Post by mikeash »

dxbydt wrote: post #24
tomhoward wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who build things that "we don't need" get the message when no-one uses their product and they run out of money. But it's still a valuable process for them and everyone else, as long as they learn how to build things we do need.

I can strap on wings and jump out of a window and have a hard landing and break a few limbs and "get the message" that I shouldn't have jumped in the first place. To claim that jumping was a valuable process is a bit far fetched. I could have gotten that same lesson by simply taking a course in aerodynamics, or better yet, watching those black and white videos from the history channel of people in the 1900s doing sim…

The problem is then figuring out what's valuable. But being told that building an entire class of extremely useful tools is not valuable just gets it completely wrong.

To take your analogy, it's like seeing some people jumping out of windows with wings and telling them, hey, stop trying to invent stuff. No, the correct message is, do your research.

Developer tools can be extremely useful, you just have to make sure that what you're building is useful and hasn't already been done before. This is completely different from saying that all developer tools are useless, which is what was said in the post.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#27

Post by pitt1980 »

anamax wrote: post #20
tomjen3 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is typical religious guilt . You must sacrifice for the stranger because if you help your friends you may get some enjoyment out of it too. surprisingly common in atheists, environmentalists, etc even if they are not traditionally considered religious.

etc includes big govt folks too. Since they're both more numerous and more powerful than enfironmentalists. However, I don't see the atheist connection. Yes, some atheists are big govt types, sure, some do, but "sacrifice for the stranger because ..." doesn't seem to be an essentially atheist characteristic.

I think the point is that sometimes atheists are more influenced by ideas that come from religion than they realize

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#28

Post by apsec112 »

This is kafkatrapping (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122):

"The aim of the kafkatrap is to produce a kind of free-floating guilt in the subject, a conviction of sinfulness that can be manipulated by the operator to make the subject say and do things that are convenient to the operator’s personal, political, or religious goals. Ideally, the subject will then internalize these demands, and then become complicit in the kafkatrapping of others."

I actually agree that the software development community tends to be too inwardly focused, but this style of argument needs to go.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#30

Post by vijayr »

akavi wrote: post #22
tomjen3 wrote: post #13

Bullshit. The reason we don't have to worry about getting a job is because a computer programmer provide value and because we are good at it. So no we don't live a life of privilege. We worked for, and earned, our position.

I don't know the circumstances of your life, so maybe what you say is true, but at least in my case, I had huge advantages in reaching the point where I could provide said value: 1) I was born in a wealthy, stable country 2) to, even for said country, well-off parents 3) with a natural inclination to mathematics/logic 4) and access to computers/internet resources from a young age All of these seem like privilege to m…

I guess both you and the parent are right - You definitely had advantage over people from poorer/war torn countries etc - but you did work for what you achieved, it didn't just come to you for free :)
Post reply on HN