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Japanese explained to programmers

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Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#361

Post by wst_ »

iopq wrote: post #351
Laaas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear to me whether it's one of the _least_ complex languages (there are various warts I'd get rid of if I were in control), but it's certainly not more complex than English. The "many pronunciations for one kanji" thing isn't a problem in practice, because 1) most kanji have _1_ on'yomi (Chinese) and _1_ kun'yomi (native) pronunciation, with it being obvious which one to choose from context, especially beca…

This is just not true let's take something very basic, the kanji 人 has two on'yomi pronunciations, jin and nin and there's no way to tell which one to use without knowing ALL of the words it will be used in 日本人 - nihonjin, so far so good 三人 - sannin, okay, I guess there's two pronunciations 二人 - futari, huh? 一人 - hitori, wat so please tell me how I am supposed to know 人生 (jinsei) from 人気 (ninki) from 恋人 (koibito) fro…

I think taking sides in this debate is pointless. Languages are always as difficult as far they are from your mother tongue or other languages you know.

Your question about the reading, though, has quite a simple answer. It's pretty obvious how to read all the examples given when you look at them as words, not a single character. Kanji does not exist in a vacuum. 人気 is "ninki" and 大人 is "otona" - no other way around it. Combination of those characters, usually, have one and only reading. To tell the truth, in English, people are unconsciously reading words as a whole, too.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#362

Post by extraduder_ire »

pezezin wrote: post #281
Laaas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear to me whether it's one of the _least_ complex languages (there are various warts I'd get rid of if I were in control), but it's certainly not more complex than English. The "many pronunciations for one kanji" thing isn't a problem in practice, because 1) most kanji have _1_ on'yomi (Chinese) and _1_ kun'yomi (native) pronunciation, with it being obvious which one to choose from context, especially beca…

> I think it's related to there being fewer ways to "fuck up". In English, it's easy to mix up the letters, transpose them, etc.. With Chinese characters/kanjix, _you can't transpose strokes_ digitally. There are people who make mistakes when writing by hand, but even that is much less when writing kana, the reason being that while in English, "relatiounally" and "relationally" might be similarly, transposing whole k…

> I have never seen it happens with an alphabet-based language.

I got it once for a couple of days when I was about 7 years old. Learned how to write an uppercase N, and became unable to write it lowercase (n) for a few days. (it's a super weird feeling, trying to write something and producing a different shape)

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#363

Post by justusw »

getoj wrote: post #342
justusw wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, 読込 is a common way of saying importing too. The particular offender I am using here is called 会計王22 ;) Although using an app released in 2022 in Windows Shift_JIS compatibility mode is giving me less than regal feelings. /s Accounting Japanese is another whole weird world of unusual Japanese, such as 支払手数料 (payment fees) suddenly applying to all kinds of non-fee things as well such as professional services. One…

支払手数料 is “fees paid” rather than “payment fees” - compare 支払利息 and 支払報酬. I’ve never noticed the ambiguity but your confusion is natural. I agree that it’s very strange that professional services fall under 手数料 instead of 報酬, but taxes are weird in every language.

Hey! A fellow accountant :)

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#364

Post by iopq »

wst_ wrote: post #361
iopq wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just not true let's take something very basic, the kanji 人 has two on'yomi pronunciations, jin and nin and there's no way to tell which one to use without knowing ALL of the words it will be used in 日本人 - nihonjin, so far so good 三人 - sannin, okay, I guess there's two pronunciations 二人 - futari, huh? 一人 - hitori, wat so please tell me how I am supposed to know 人生 (jinsei) from 人気 (ninki) from 恋人 (koibito) fro…

I think taking sides in this debate is pointless. Languages are always as difficult as far they are from your mother tongue or other languages you know. Your question about the reading, though, has quite a simple answer. It's pretty obvious how to read all the examples given when you look at them as words, not a single character. Kanji does not exist in a vacuum. 人気 is "ninki" and 大人 is "otona" - no other way around…

Great, so what is 大人気?

if it's 大人気ない it's probably childish, but if it's not in that context, it's probably very popular

You need to finish reading the whole SENTENCE to be able to pronounce it

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#365

Post by Tor3 »

shiomiru wrote: post #159
Tor3 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why it's called a zero-が if there's no "が", because every valid Japanese sentence needs a subject. It may sound like nitpicking, but it's important to clarify that it is not correct to say that "the subject can be expressed by any of は、が, or the context". Thinking about it that way only makes it difficult to understand where the particles should be used, and indeed the difference between は and が. Either the su…

> It may sound like nitpicking... [snip] You're entirely right, what I said there was incorrect (or sloppy at best.) Thank you for the correction. > That's why it's called a zero-が if there's no "が", because every valid Japanese sentence needs a subject. This is the part which I find unhelpful. You could say "every valid English sentence needs a subject and a verb", and you'd be having a hard time finding a sentence…

The main reason for imagining the zero-が is that it helps you understand the structure of Japanese. Do this, and you'll never get confused by "は" and "が" again. And understanding that が always marks a subject, and never anything else, also helps resolving some apparent special cases and exceptions (which aren't, in fact, exceptions) in Japanese. Specifically, が never marks the object, even if textbooks and even some Japanese teachers who have learned Western grammar think so sometimes.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#366

Post by wst_ »

barking_biscuit wrote: post #267
Laaas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear to me whether it's one of the _least_ complex languages (there are various warts I'd get rid of if I were in control), but it's certainly not more complex than English. The "many pronunciations for one kanji" thing isn't a problem in practice, because 1) most kanji have _1_ on'yomi (Chinese) and _1_ kun'yomi (native) pronunciation, with it being obvious which one to choose from context, especially beca…

>The "many pronunciations for one kanji" thing isn't a problem in practice, because 1) most kanji have _1_ on'yomi (Chinese) and _1_ kun'yomi (native) pronunciation, with it being obvious which one to choose from context, especially because when it's kun'yomi, the kanji are suffixed with hiragana to denote its correct pronunciation. There are however problematic kanji, such as the one you note, because there are seve…

Isn't it common in English, too? Just to mention "vague", "awe", "sigh". There are many others. I see those words and pronunciation is far from obvious to me.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#367

Post by Tor3 »

ghc wrote: post #277
shiomiru wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, my interpretation is also that the subject can be expressed by any of は, が, or the context. I am having trouble understanding the "implicit が" analysis because it seems to me that in many cases adding a が would make the sentence nonsensical (like in the example.) So it just feels like retrofitting が into a role that it really doesn't have. Then again, I'm not an expert, so I may very well be wrong about this.

I recall the explanation of an excellent little Japanese grammar book that made it click for me: 私は puts the emphasis on what you, as opposed to everyone else is doing, and the closest english equivalent is "As for me,". If you translate it that way, 「私は牛肉を食べます」means, in English: "As for me, I will eat beef." Notice now that both "me" and "I" are present in the translation. So adding が doesn't in fact change the sent…

Yes, that's how e.g. Human Japanese (PC, Android etc) defines how the topic marker should be understood, and it definitely helps.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#368

Post by justusw »

ickoonite wrote: post #344
justusw wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, 読込 is a common way of saying importing too. The particular offender I am using here is called 会計王22 ;) Although using an app released in 2022 in Windows Shift_JIS compatibility mode is giving me less than regal feelings. /s Accounting Japanese is another whole weird world of unusual Japanese, such as 支払手数料 (payment fees) suddenly applying to all kinds of non-fee things as well such as professional services. One…

支払手数料 a fine example of how messy the language can become. What looks like a run of 漢語 actually contains a mix of on-yomi and kun-yomi and “you just have to know”. That there would be Japanese software houses still using Shift JIS in 2022 does not surprise me in the slightest. Presumably they still deliver you software updates by floppy disk, notification of which comes by fax…?

When you consider that alternatives like freee are still quite clunky in the browser, you don't have a lot of choice. I haven't tried Yayoi yet, but I don't expect much.

Kaikeio doesn't support HiDPI / 150 % fractional scaling either, so it looks really weird on my machine.

Recently the maker (Sorimachi) has announced that you can download their newest edition. Too late! They have already sent me the CD.

Anyway, you know it's completely wild when their official help site points you to switch to Shift-JIS compatiblity mode on a fresh install of Windows 11 :) (https://qa.sorimachi.co.jp/hc/ja/articles/360054408631-%EF%B...)

I just resort to editing everything in GnuCash and then importing into Kaikeio using a custom sql -> csv script. I hate the idea of my accounting journal being trapped in proprietary software.

Too bad that Japanese lawmakers have further decided to decrease software freedom by prescribing the use of digital time stamping by next year.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#369

Post by wst_ »

iopq wrote: post #364
wst_ wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think taking sides in this debate is pointless. Languages are always as difficult as far they are from your mother tongue or other languages you know. Your question about the reading, though, has quite a simple answer. It's pretty obvious how to read all the examples given when you look at them as words, not a single character. Kanji does not exist in a vacuum. 人気 is "ninki" and 大人 is "otona" - no other way around…

Great, so what is 大人気? if it's 大人気ない it's probably childish, but if it's not in that context, it's probably very popular You need to finish reading the whole SENTENCE to be able to pronounce it

Not sure I agree with that. It's not difficult to notice one has "nai", other don't. Also when you read it in actual sentence you can immediately notice that something is wrong when you choose the wrong reading. Subsequent words don't add up. I am not saying confusion doesn't occur. I'm just saying it's not as big as people are painting it.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#370

Post by barking_biscuit »

camdez wrote: post #304
Laaas wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For such cases I find that the pronunciation _doesn't matter_. The meaning still comes across.

I struggle to see how this "doesn't matter" while also agreeing with you that it's a super cool property. Especially for someone coming from an alphabetic language background. Logograms allow you to understand (some) meaning without understanding pronunciation. Syllabaries and alphabets allow you to understand pronunciation (to varying degrees of success depending on spelling consistency) without necessarily understa…

Names and particularly place names are on a whole other level. Especially stuff that's written in a font other than the standard, nicely formatted text you're used to reading.
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