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I want to lose every debate

sive.rs

361–370 of 386 posts

Re: I want to lose every debate

#361
post #360
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Butthurt teenager". Ah, resorting to insults now? "Despite your best effort, you still learned something today." How would you say the above line ranks in the goal of "I hope to lose every debate" and "just listen" mindset?

> "Butthurt teenager". Ah, resorting to insults now? Again, re-read your own comments. I've matched a fraction of your insults and you're already getting upset. > How would you say the above line ranks in the goal of "I hope to lose every debate" and "just listen" mindset? It doesn't rank well at all. Good thing I never claimed to have a "just listen" mindset. In fact, I said I disagree with it.

> you're already getting upset

Am I upset? You sound upset yourself.

> Good thing I never claimed to have a "just listen" mindset. In fact, I said I disagree with it.

It raises the question of what you were trying to debate with me then.

Could you summarize what you think my initial comment was arguing?

Re: I want to lose every debate

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feels like the Republican vs. Libertarians issue. Like the author accidentally noticed that there are other valid point of views. "Maybe those LGBT groups do make a point and should be accepted and integrated just the way they are." But honestly, there are just facts which are settled in the larger community and trying to negate them just doesn't lead anywhere, when the fruitful discussion is in "the smaller issues".…

Your comment confuses me. It sounds like you actually do not want to discuss these issues (which is fine), and that is different from debating to win on these issues. What I don't get is that while you do not want to explore these issues, why do you take issue with someone who does? When Derek sees that a large collection of people believe in something that he doesn't, he wants to know what they see/believe that he d…

> to not let women get a college degree

There's no reason for me to stick to your exact argument since yours is a subset of a problem which is occurring in several places. For us this issue is settled and there is no reason to undo the progress which has been made.

> I would prefer to live in a society where it's considered a good thing to not let women get a college degree and marry them off in their teens and if this were up for debate, I sure hope I would not get convinced of the opposite.

This implies that you are assuming the perspective of a person which is in favor of a patriarchal society, let's take Afghanistan for example. The people you are referring to there do certainly not want to get convinced of the opposite of their beliefs, they would be giving up (unfair) privileges. There is no value for us assume their point of view, there's nothing to gain but an understanding of which methods could exist in order to try to educate these men to make them understand that those are no human rights. The author implies that he accepts the point of view of those people which he talks to, which is perfectly fine, but in this case, it is unacceptable. There is nothing left to debate. In that case the only thing that can happen is that some courageous women fight for their rights, but we also have to admit that it gets harder and harder the more modern a population becomes. Take Iran for example, not that they have the education issue, but there it's about some freedoms which some citizens want to obtain, but it get's harder because there's the new technology which the oppressors can make use of.

Where is the point in debating that murder should be an accepted and not punishable fact of life? You simply can't put a person with me in a room which is pro-murder and have it debate with me that it is ok. There is nothing, absolutely nothing for me to gain from his point of view, with the exception of me maybe getting to understand how a murderer thinks which could be a benefit if I would be a detective, which I am not. There's also nothing for me to gain by having some Taliban with me in a room and he trying to make me understand that women have essentially no rights. There's zero reason for me to even listen to a single word which this person has to say to me in this regard.

That is what I'm trying to explain, that some things are not even worthy of debate and if those were assumed that they would be worthy of it, then I certainly would not want to lose those debates when engaging in them. The other person should be the one learning something. There are hills I'm willing to die on. Sometimes the other person is, simply put, a stupid person.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment confuses me. It sounds like you actually do not want to discuss these issues (which is fine), and that is different from debating to win on these issues. What I don't get is that while you do not want to explore these issues, why do you take issue with someone who does? When Derek sees that a large collection of people believe in something that he doesn't, he wants to know what they see/believe that he d…

> to not let women get a college degree There's no reason for me to stick to your exact argument since yours is a subset of a problem which is occurring in several places. For us this issue is settled and there is no reason to undo the progress which has been made. > I would prefer to live in a society where it's considered a good thing to not let women get a college degree and marry them off in their teens and if th…

> For us this issue is settled and there is no reason to undo the progress which has been made.

This is just an "I've made up my mind and don't want to think about it" mentality.

Overall you're missing the point: You say "For us this issue is settled" and they say the same - it just settled differently. If you're not open to explore it, do you see that it is weird to expect them to be open to changing?

> This implies that you are assuming the perspective of a person which is in favor of a patriarchal society, let's take Afghanistan for example. The people you are referring to there do certainly not want to get convinced of the opposite of their beliefs, they would be giving up (unfair) privileges.

While this may be true of Afghanistan, it is not true of the people I am talking about. But how would you know that without engaging?

> There is no value for us assume their point of view, there's nothing to gain but an understanding of which methods could exist in order to try to educate these men to make them understand that those are no human rights.

Saying "there's nothing to gain" is simply saying "I know better" without knowing perhaps half of what there is to know. Of course you do! So do they!

> You simply can't put a person with me in a room which is pro-murder and have it debate with me that it is ok.

That much is clear from your comments. But if the pro-murder person is willing to listen to you, he is already ahead of you in understanding.

> There is nothing, absolutely nothing for me to gain from his point of view, with the exception of me maybe getting to understand how a murderer thinks which could be a benefit if I would be a detective, which I am not. There's also nothing for me to gain by having some Taliban with me in a room and he trying to make me understand that women have essentially no rights. There's zero reason for me to even listen to a single word which this person has to say to me in this regard.

Going back to my original comment, your mentality is the same as those who argue the opposite. And while opaque to you, it is crystal clear to people who have lived in both societies. They have the stances you find repugnant for precisely the same reasons you have your stances - you get validation from the society you live in and are unwilling to comprehend that there can be (reasonable) other points of view.

What I think is happening is that you simply don't want to explore these issues. As I said - that is totally fine. Life is limited and we can't explore everything. But instead of stating it as your preference, you are trying to make absolutist statements about it ("not worthy of debate" "other person is ... a stupid person", etc.)

Re: I want to lose every debate

#364
post #361
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Butthurt teenager". Ah, resorting to insults now? Again, re-read your own comments. I've matched a fraction of your insults and you're already getting upset. > How would you say the above line ranks in the goal of "I hope to lose every debate" and "just listen" mindset? It doesn't rank well at all. Good thing I never claimed to have a "just listen" mindset. In fact, I said I disagree with it.

> you're already getting upset Am I upset? You sound upset yourself. > Good thing I never claimed to have a "just listen" mindset. In fact, I said I disagree with it. It raises the question of what you were trying to debate with me then. Could you summarize what you think my initial comment was arguing?

> Could you summarize what you think my initial comment was arguing?

In a lame "gotcha" attempt you took author's words extremely literally: "Let's see how you lose a debate against 2 x 2 = 5 believer. Haha, I'm so smart."

Now, which one do you think is more likely:

- Author meant to say that literally every debate is worth losing

- You (likely on purpose) misunderstood the point author is trying to make

What do you really think is the point author was trying to make? Can you explain in your own words?

Re: I want to lose every debate

#365
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to believe that the people who are against sex work are actually thinking of the good of the sex workers and because of human trafficking. Yet there is a lot of human trafficking in other areas, like farmwork or maids in the Western world, and the non-Western world is filled with sweatshops and literal slaves. And you never hear them mention it. Which makes me convinced these people are just anti-sex work fo…

> Which makes me convinced these people are just anti-sex work for religious or moral reasons If it matters I'm an atheist. I'm against "sex work" because women (it's women in the majority of cases) are trafficked and taken advantage of, in both a material and a direct physical way. I see this "sex work" non-sense mostly coming from people who have had no direct contact with the reality/materiality of it all, i.e. mo…

This 'lover boy' scam is a big industry in Japan, it's called host clubs.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But he is, he characterized that person as a Hindu,he didn't say a friend or a neighbour or whatever else he could have described her by. The implication in labelling her hindu is that this a common or known position amongst Hindus?.

I have no idea why he chose that signifier to refer to the individual he was talking about, that was also confusing to me, but it doesn't follow that he means "literally everyone who is also Hindu", and I didn't jump to that conclusion.

I understood it as a common or at least well known view amongst hindus, which seems a reasonable interpretation of the statement made.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that the author spoke about one particular Hindu they met who was not upset by their state of poverty. It’s not clear to me that they claimed that your community is not upset by it, and is not doing anything to fix it. Help me with clarity.

If it has nothing do with her being hindu or beliefs generated from religion then why is that fact she is hindu relevant ?. It is like saying a short or bald person came to me and said poverty doesn't bother them. If I was short or bald then I am going to be offended by that.

[deleted]

Re: I want to lose every debate

#368
There are three kinds of debate:

- Debate where the goal is to learn.

- Debate where the goal is to persuade your opponent.

- Debate where the goal is to persuade the audience.

The first is good for your soul, the second for you ego and the third for your political career.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#369
post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

There is nothing more tedious in adult life than some debate club weenie trying to turn every random fucking conversation into a debate. I strongly suspect debate club has a net negative impact on peoples social skills. It teaches a bunch of anti patterns to successful social interactions. Like, you will be shooting the shit with the lads down pub the once or twice you see them per year when this dickhead (and every…

This describes passivity not social skills. I can't really say that doing nothing or walking away in the face of an unpleasant situation while privately declaring the other people involved "cringe" and "dickheads" and "weenies" really demonstrates great social skills honestly.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#370
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What source do you get the 20% from? The 20% figure might be outdated now after the Ukrainians liberated Khersonks'ka Oblast north of the Dnipro. The NYT most recently put the figure at 18%[0]. > As to the total erasure of Ukraine I am also unaware of any evidence that this is true. I always appreciate being informed and would love an authoritative source on this if you(or anyone) can provide it. The russians are o…

Thank you for the very thoughtful reply. I am reading it now but wanted to respond in a timely manner. I do try to keep my opinion on important events informed, but have been finding it increasingly difficult since Jan 2020. I lean towards promoting a solution that doesn't turn this invasion into WW3. Preferably a solution that results in fewer deaths. That does also include worldwide deaths that for example may stem…

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond, especially given I hadn’t made it clear as toward whom my ire was directed.

Unfortunately, because Putin has gone all-in with this war, he has backed himself into a corner. There is no off-ramp that he can now take to save face. I think the hesitance of the western powers in arming Ukraine has been an attempt to provide Putin with off-ramps and minimise both civilian and military casualties on both sides. They have slowly begun to realise that Putin has no interest in diplomacy, which is why they have stepped up arms shipments.

The way this ends is in russian military defeat. That might not happen before they lose about half a million soldiers though, and we’re about 20% of the way there. It might also end sooner if the Ukrainians are able to expel all russian forces from all of Ukrainian territory, and then build sufficient defences so that further border skirmishes are futile. The Ukrainians need a whole load of equipment for that though.

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