Live data from Hacker News

Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

semianalysis.com

201–210 of 293 posts

Re: Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If Intel cuts its dividend the stock will crater Not necessarily. It really makes zero difference to the valuation of a company. Investors really punish companies that can barely cover their dividend (or worse have to borrow). If earnings are bad and revenues are not growing, the dividend is just a hokey shell game that works for about 5 minutes.

Depends on the investor. There is an entire class of investor that is focused on stocks that reliably deliver a dividend. I wasn't aware that Intel had joined old-economy companies like oil, but I also don't fully understand the dividend investor mindset, as I can't figure out a tax situation that makes it appealing...

Taxes aren't ideal, but a brief philosophical defense of the dividend investor mindset:

Before the 1920s stock bubble, buying stock in a company was buying a portion of the company's future free cash flow in return for investment. The value of a stock was fundamentally coupled to running a profitable business. The dividend was the point.

The 1920s saw a major shift of valuation philosophy to a speculative mode, focusing on the price of a stock. Now, occasional crazy things happen where the price of a stock can shift dramatically even without change in the dynamics of the underlying business. Prices should reflect future earnings... but they often don't. Portfolio construction and indexing are protections against this, but the underlying philosophy goes even further in treating stock prices as random walks with underlying market beta, not as real businesses. Indexing punts out of real valuation.

I won't defend "dividend investing" with weird dividend manipulation, but I really do like having an alternative valuation model: the value of an investment is not the result of an increase in price since my purchase of that asset, but instead my recurring cash flow yield from owning that asset. I certainly have money in index funds and speculative assets, but I get a lot from a yield based valuation philosophy instead of price based valuation:

- Prices are heavily manipulated and favor insiders and funds, not individual investors.

- It feels more connected with reality.

- The growth of passive investments probably poses systemic risks (Mike Green's talks and interviews are great) and I don't want to piss in the pool too much. Yield based valuation makes me more comfortable making active investments.

- Easier to value different asset classes against each other, for example buying a house to rent out vs stocks. The valuation is my dollar yield per time per dollar invested.

- Boomers retiring and pulling money out of the system plus decay of globalization will put heavy deflationary forces on markets in the coming years. I don't feel like a price based approach to valuation provides clear guidance on how to navigate investments other than "be smart". A yield based approach lets me walk away with a return even if stocks stay flat or go down.

Pretty much all of the above comes from the book Getting Back to Business by Daniel Peris. Bit dry and dense, but very thought provoking.

Re: Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about my comment implies they’d have to. The US just wants supply chain security and availability. That can be done by TSMC factories in the US regardless of where else they have factories.

not really. the US cares a lot more about Taiwan if they are making the chips for the US. a sizable part of Taiwan's national defense strategy is to have a benevolent monopoly on cutting edge chip production so their allies think it's worth it to fight a war with China if necessary.

Yes, that is the current state. I was entertaining a future scenario above. TSMC is currently building more capacity outside of Taiwan, and the US is making investments that will likely continue this.

Re: Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

#203

"This was an incredibly dumb move, as employees will become “quiet quitters” and lose morale." Suppose you need to cut employment costs. Is this always better than firing staff? - For employees: you share the burden instead of some facing hard options (firing) so if you are a team player, this is the choice for you. Those who have options in the market, can still leave for greener pastures; if this was the deciding f…

I’m sure that’s the MBA type rationalizing going on Intel.

Without the second part where the dividends have not been cut and the company would otherwise be making sound business decision it would also be understandable.

As it is tho, it is smelly as hell.

Re: Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

#204
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard about companies doing this in times of economic downturns to prevent layoffs. If that was the cause and it was communicated as such and temporary I'd be willing. Example: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/toyota-staf...

In Germany this is known as "Kurzarbeit" (literal translation: short work). The company reduces the work hours of employees and the pay gets cut proportionally. The cut hours will be paid by the state at a rate of 60% (67% for workers with children, the rate is the same as unemployment). So if a worker's hours get cut by 50%, they still get paid 80-83.5% of their wage. The company can choose to get the employees' pay…

That's not the same. This one is a pay cut while maintaining the same hours.

Re: Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

#205
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems surprising that Intel either doesn't think that retaining top talent is in the interest of shareholders, When everyone around you is laying thousands of people off, your top talent isn't likely to leave you, regardless of what indignities you heap on it.

But it destroys loyalty, and they will leave at the first opportunity, which will happen sooner or later. It does not sound good as a longer-term strategy.

Every employer of note across tech is behaving in pretty much the same manner right now. There's no point holding a grudge over this if the alternative is working at... Anywhere else, that treated its people just as poorly this year.

The more plausible risk is people mentally checking out, and not giving much of a crap about their work.

Re: Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I've had one pay cut in my career, and it immediately made me just up and leave. I don't know why one would tolerate such a thing, unless there was significant up-side still on the table.

Depends on the market. If everyone gets a paycut and Powell strikes the interest rates you' may have no other alternative.

Apple, Google, Nvidia & gang will always be happy to snap up a few promising/experienced engineers.

Re: Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that, aren’t buy backs better for investors anyway? One reason I imagine is them being excluded from dividend etfs which would mean an outflow

I can spend a divided. Especially if I have to take a mandatory distribution. You have to sell (at the right time) to get profit from a buyback

You are forced to pay tax when you get a dividend. Buybacks allow you to sell over time and achieve the same thing but with preferential tax treatment in most jurisdictions.

Or more importantly not sell at all and not be forced to pay tax when you are just going to re-invest the dividend.

Re: Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

#208
post #90

If Intel cuts its dividend the stock will crater. Since executive compensation is stock-based, tied to the stock performance, or both, there's an obvious incentive to keep the dividend going. The dividend has become more political than normal. In finance theory, a dividend is supposed to be a paid-out return. If you're cutting salaries to pay the dividend that means that you don't have enough surplus...by definition.…

FWIW when I worked at Intel their 401k match was also in Intel Stock so there is that. (I do not know if they still do that) And yes, when I was there in '84 they were doing pay cuts to keep layoffs to a minimum.

401k match at Intel is just normal $ through Fidelity now

Re: Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

#209
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upside might be not having to search for a job in current job market with layoffs happening left and right.

That wouldn't be a problem for the more talented players - the ones you most want to keep

That wouldn’t be a problem for engineers who are good at networking or the interview song and dance, but plenty of talented engineers aren’t particularly good at those things.

The company will lose some talent, sure, but let’s not pretend this isn’t a strategic time for a layoff or pay cut.

Re: Intel Cuts Employee Pay to Maintain Quarterly Dividend

#210
post #3

Wasn’t a cut of employee pay how they got into trouble in the first place?

I don't think so, unless it was long enough ago to be outside my window of experience.

Intel went through a major round of layoffs in 2016. (This was called ACT.) I don't know of any pay cuts, just salaries that weren't particularly high to begin with and haven't risen very fast.

This time they're apparently trying to avoid large-scale layoffs. Cutting salary/benefits isn't great either though. If they want to reduce payroll expenses, they could take volunteers for people to switch to a 32 hour a week schedule in exchange for reduced pay (which wouldn't even be a new policy, it just isn't very well known).

Post reply on HN