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Japanese explained to programmers

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Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Burning up” pretty much is “burning down”? Except that if you are burning up, you have a fever, but if you are burning down, you might be planning on illegally collecting some insurance money :)

Houses that are burning up are also burning down, but people who are burning up are not also burning down.

A structure burns down (to the ground). Anything else (including people) burns up.

"The house burnt up", is not proper, but people say it and everyone knows what you mean.

Then there's the saying of what you're referencing, "burning up" as in you feel like you are "on fire", when you are sick.

Phrasal verbs are probably the hardest part of being fluent in English.

People will understand what you mean, but it won't sound right.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there’s no limit on how many readings a kanji can get, people can randomly add new readings and popularize them. Precisely! It is insane. Song lyrics are a case in point. It is the height of erudition to contrive a novel way to write some verb or other. Furigana are essential for karaoke.

> Song lyrics are a case in point. It is the height of erudition to contrive a novel way to write some verb or other. This is intensely interesting -- do I understand this correctly, that what happens is a songwriter uses a verb (or I guess any word) and writes it down as a different set of kanji(+kana) than how it's usually written, and the new form is confusing at first to a reader of the lyrics, and the new form e…

I'm not familiar with many Japanese song lyrics, so not familiar with the phenomenon mentioned. I'd also be interested in examples.

There are always several ways to write a word in Japanese. As far as I know, any word can be written in hiragana. Additionally, there are the kanji writing and then katakana. While katakana is primarily used for words that were appropriated from other languages, it has several other common uses. For example, if a robot, alien, child, or non-Japanese is speaking, the words may be written in katakana to indicate the non-fluency of the speaker. Also, many animal names are often written in katakana.

Additionally, there are quite a few pseudo-English words that are written in katakana because they originally arose from English words. Some of my favorites (written in romaji for those who don't read katakana):

- "baabeekaa" : pronounced similar to "baby car", this word means a stroller

- "akogi" : short for acoustic guitar

- "brappi", "jimihen", etc: Brad Pitt, Jimi Hendrix, etc.

- "handoru": pronounced similar to "handle". This is what a steering wheel is called in Japanese, so..

- "handorukeepaa": or handle keeper, refers to a designated driver.

Another interesting thing that occurs in Japanese is referred to as ateji. This is where kanji are used only for the sound they give. In other words, any word can be written by just using a kanji with that sound for each syllable. The meanings of the kanji chosen (there are many with each particular sound) can give additional flavor/wordplay/signifigance to the usage.

Finally, one of the most interesting things I saw in Japanese was a baby soap, called "Arau baby". The first word "arau" is the Japanese infinitive for "to wash" written in romaji, or roman script. Since this is the product name and it is written in roman script, the product label also includes a katakana translation (アラウベビー). So instead of using the kanji for arau, it was treated as a foreign word and then appropriated back into Japanese using katakana. Or something.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're being sarcastic, but as a Spanish native speaker I'd say English precisely excels on how well it handles ambiguity and certainty. I also hate with passion that it's not written as it sounds (I think everyone who comes from a language with very regular pronunciation will tell you this) but I don't think this is a real issue on a daily basis. On the other hand Spanish handles other things better. I'd say…

Too bad the Romans only used five vowel sounds and left us with an alphabet that has trouble expressing the however many sounds English has.

Not a problem with diacritics. But I wish languages used them consistently, so that e.g. o/ö or e/ę relate in the same or at least in a similar way in all languages that use them.

For phonemic spelling systems, it wouldn't even be hard. Start with the baseline of aeiou for the basic vowel triangle. Then let's say that umlaut changes the vowel's "default" backness without changing roundness, ogonek lowers the vowel, tilde makes it nasal, and breve makes it a glide. This gives us aąäãăeęëẽĕiįïĩĭoǫöõŏuųüũŭ, plus all combinations of these diacritics when needed (which should be very rare). Add doubling to indicate vowel length, and I can't think of any European language that cannot be consistently expressed this way; American English should only need aąäeëiįouų.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard the term "phrasal verb" but one similar case that doesn't use verbs pops up in my head all the time, "down {for,on,with}": - "I'm down for that", I am prepared and willing to do that - "I'm down on that", I don't like that practice - "I'm down with that", I do like that practice

That's American. English would be: I'm up for that. I'm not ok with that. I'm ok with that.

As an American, the "down" slang sound weird.

The most I've heard in the wild is a short "I'm down.", you wouldn't say "I'm up." (unless you're saying you woke up, or you're high, or your gambling is going well)

Other than that, your versions are more common in the US as well, from my experience.

edit: Thinking more on it... "I'm up for that" would be used if you were slightly hesitant. "I'm down for that" implies a lot more confidence.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#265

Surprised this post didn't mention Forth. https://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2011/02/japanese-lisp-f... BTW this toy language came up in my search for the above: https://gist.github.com/typeswitch-dev/ac86d7e32167c1e5bf311...

What makes Forth really distinctive is LIFO, not merely being postfix. You can have stack-based LIFO human languages, too, but it's very hard for humans to parse things that correspond to non-trivial nested constructs in them because of the need to maintain said mental stack. Fith is/was a conlang built on that idea:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110610231636/http://www.langmak...

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're being sarcastic, but as a Spanish native speaker I'd say English precisely excels on how well it handles ambiguity and certainty. I also hate with passion that it's not written as it sounds (I think everyone who comes from a language with very regular pronunciation will tell you this) but I don't think this is a real issue on a daily basis. On the other hand Spanish handles other things better. I'd say…

> I'd say English precisely excels on how well it handles ambiguity and certainty. I'm curious about this. I mean, English doesn't even have different words for singular/plural "you".

I know this is a paradox, but the fact that verb tenses in English are so simple and give so little context compared to Spanish makes them very easy and global. Pick this sentence:

Joe flew yesterday to Paris, he had never flown before, so he was nervous.

Pretty much every speaker no matter where from will use the same tenses here, past simple for recent past and perfect for older past. We have similar rules in Spanish and I'm pretty sure that another person from my region would use the same tenses as I would. But I'm not quite sure if someone from, say Costa Rica or El Salvador would pick the same tenses. In fact, I don't know if someone 500km south or west would use the same tenses. This is usually not a problem because usually you don't need that much correctness, but in engineering it can be a problem.

Because English verb tenses are so simple they are used in a way more consistent way and from Australia will use the verbs in a very similar way as a Brit, and even non native speakers can use them in a pretty correct way.

Another problem is that in Spanish verbs give you a lot more context and people rely on them, but again they are used differently across regions. In Englosh because they give so little context means that you're forced to add a lot more context in the rest of the sentence in a much more explicit way.

Yet another problem is that verbs in Spanish are super complex for non natives, and because we rely on the verb so much they may end up saying something that they don't mean. Also this is usually not a problem in casual conversations but in technical conversations it may be an issue.

Finally, English handles certainty well. It's very easy to tell how certain you are, if something is mandatory or not, how likely is something, etc. I can't explain why, maybe it's because I've read countless RFCs and not many specifications in Spanish, but this is a general feeling that I have even though I cannot give you an exact reason but I think it would be easier to translate a specification from Spanish to English than the other way around. Even if I find more often things that translate poorly from Spanish to English than the other way around.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#267
post #50

I have to fundamentally disagree with the premise: Japanese is probably one of the least logical languages on the planet. To wit, it combines the written complexity of Chinese with the spelling inconsistency of English. The one-to-many relationship between a given kanji and its many pronunciations makes it maddeningly difficult, even for native speakers. 生, for example, has at least nine pronunciations. The only way…

It's not clear to me whether it's one of the _least_ complex languages (there are various warts I'd get rid of if I were in control), but it's certainly not more complex than English. The "many pronunciations for one kanji" thing isn't a problem in practice, because 1) most kanji have _1_ on'yomi (Chinese) and _1_ kun'yomi (native) pronunciation, with it being obvious which one to choose from context, especially beca…

>The "many pronunciations for one kanji" thing isn't a problem in practice, because 1) most kanji have _1_ on'yomi (Chinese) and _1_ kun'yomi (native) pronunciation, with it being obvious which one to choose from context, especially because when it's kun'yomi, the kanji are suffixed with hiragana to denote its correct pronunciation. There are however problematic kanji, such as the one you note, because there are several things it could mean, but this isn't really any different from _all_ languages.

What the heck...? It's most definitely a problem in practice! That problem becomes pretty obvious once you get a vocabulary of around 10k ~ 15k words and you read both fiction and non-fiction books. What you find is that every time you encounter an unfamiliar word you only really have a best guess at how to read it and you actually can't be 100% sure. This has repeatedly been my experience. I spent some time thinking about if I could shortcut this process by instead simply learning all the "exceptions to the rule" but what I discovered is that the volume of them is too large for that to be a tractable approach.

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#268
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry it's almost a meme at this point that France has a thing for Japan and vice versa. The 90s in particular were ripe with animes on the main French channel, lots of collaboration between France and Japan. We got Japanese movies in the cinema much prior the rest of the world and even today you can find gigantic sections for mangas and anime in bookshops, cinemas...

From my childhood, it was obvious the French had a love of anime from series that made it to the UK, like Ulysses 31 [0] and The Mysterious Cities of Gold [1], co-productions between French and Japanese TV companies. I also thought Dogtanian and the Three Muskehounds [2] was French, but it was produced in Spain. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_31 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysterious_Cities_of_Gold […

Tangentially, Mysterious Cities of Gold played in the U.S. in the 80s, on the children's cable network Nickelodeon, along with another French show they called Spartakus and the Sun Beneath the Sea, evidently titled Les Mondes Engloutis in France. I also loved these shows as a kid!

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#269
post #50

I have to fundamentally disagree with the premise: Japanese is probably one of the least logical languages on the planet. To wit, it combines the written complexity of Chinese with the spelling inconsistency of English. The one-to-many relationship between a given kanji and its many pronunciations makes it maddeningly difficult, even for native speakers. 生, for example, has at least nine pronunciations. The only way…

It's not clear to me whether it's one of the _least_ complex languages (there are various warts I'd get rid of if I were in control), but it's certainly not more complex than English. The "many pronunciations for one kanji" thing isn't a problem in practice, because 1) most kanji have _1_ on'yomi (Chinese) and _1_ kun'yomi (native) pronunciation, with it being obvious which one to choose from context, especially beca…

Aren't you just pointing out that fluent speakers don't often have a problem communicating? Surely that's true for any language, almost tautologically (they would have changed the language, even unintentionally, if there were major problems).

Re: Japanese explained to programmers

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there’s no limit on how many readings a kanji can get, people can randomly add new readings and popularize them. Precisely! It is insane. Song lyrics are a case in point. It is the height of erudition to contrive a novel way to write some verb or other. Furigana are essential for karaoke.

> Song lyrics are a case in point. It is the height of erudition to contrive a novel way to write some verb or other. This is intensely interesting -- do I understand this correctly, that what happens is a songwriter uses a verb (or I guess any word) and writes it down as a different set of kanji(+kana) than how it's usually written, and the new form is confusing at first to a reader of the lyrics, and the new form e…

I can't think of any examples of the top of my head, but I have definitely seen this many times. One form it comes in is writing the meaning in kanji but then using an English word in Katakana as the Furigana for it. One example I can remember in that form, though it's not song lyrics, is "とある科学の超電磁砲" where 超電磁砲 has the Furigana レールガン (rail gun). Another form it takes is doing the same thing but using a different Japanese word instead of an English one.

There is just absolutely all sorts of fuckery in Japanese on a count of people playing with the language. It's a fun language to play around with.

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