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Show HN: Working on a Zero-Knowledge Daily Journaling App

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Re: Show HN: Working on a Zero-Knowledge Daily Journaling App

#31

Can't find any info about journal encryption on the website itself. Perhaps there should be a page dedicated to explaining how your data is protected. Otherwise great stuff!

yes agree, thanks! The white paper is here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T0SEj5WrymfyzNDD8rNGKQ2O... need to add to landing page

SHA-256 is not suited to derive key material from weak input data, you should use PBKDF2 or another key derivation function for that. The authentication method also seems pretty wonky, that's not how to do zero-knowledge password verification, you should look at methods like PAKE for that. As usual, just don't roll your own crypto if you don't know what you're doing.

Re: Show HN: Working on a Zero-Knowledge Daily Journaling App

#32

I've worked on 2 "zero-knowledge" apps (basically meaning all data is encrypted/decrypted on the client) and I would advise against it: * most consumers have no idea what you're talking about / don't care * those who know what "zero trust" is, also know that it's not really trustless. You do have to trust the company that it will never send the password or plaintext data back to the server. Checking this on a continu…

Two of your arguments (1 and 4) are only narrowly applicable (i.e. you should rephrase to "I would advise against it if your sole goal is a large mainstream growth"), but even in that context, priorities of mainstream consumers have shifted over the decades as a direct result of people developing/failing/retrying building such niche projects, & those projects slowly making their way into mainstream consciousness over time. So I'd never recommend against doing something because the audience is small today.

As to your other two points:

- your third bullet amounts to "don't do X because it is difficult"

- your second bullet isn't really true. Zero trust can be trustless in theory, and every effort to make it so moves the dial closer to that ideal. It's entirely conceivable for "effective trustlessness" to be achievable for a decent range of threat models. Sending plainttext/passwords back to the server could be mitigated by a broad selection of approaches: moving the "reproducible / verifiable / signed builds" efforts of native apps into the browser. Components of this are already conceivable with service workers, and with enough demand browsers could easily improve support for related measures.

TL;DR what's easy to do today security-/privacy-wise is easy purely because people continued to work on it when it seemed impossible / not worthwhile. Discouraging these efforts is really poor form.

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Additionally, worth mentioning that all of the above applies to SaaS, and for open-source self-hostable projects (not applicable here), the reasons to continue working on it are even stronger.

Re: Show HN: Working on a Zero-Knowledge Daily Journaling App

#33
On a marketing tangent, I wish the security practitioners had names better than "zero-knowledge" and "trustless". To an average person, they really make the system sound dumb and dubious despite them being beneficial.

Curious what alternative names people have?

Re: Show HN: Working on a Zero-Knowledge Daily Journaling App

#34
post #18

I've been journaling for about 15 years now. The big key to getting consistent at it was to stop worrying about trying to write a lot, or trying to write something insightful, and just write a sentence or two at a minimum. Often, that turns into more or into something insightful.

I've been doing it only for 3 or 4 years, and this 100% lines up with my experience. There are times when I haven't been consistent, and it always comes down to feeling that "I can't do a good job of it right now, maybe later..." and then I miss that day, and miss that week, etc. I use the mobile app Pixels for journaling though. It lets the user define custom tags (I track emotions, activities, wake up time, body pa…

I'm glad you pointed out the tags issue. I've been using Daylio for a while now because I like doing little entries throughout my day and I initially set up a bunch of tags. Lately those tags have started to feel like a burden because I worry about missing an entry related to those tags. That burden hasn't become significant yet, but it is something that's bothering me and I could see it be an excuse later on to just give up on the whole thing... i.e. the data junky in me says what's the point of tracking data if the dataset isn't accurate.

Re: Show HN: Working on a Zero-Knowledge Daily Journaling App

#36

what does Zero-knowledge mean and how it is different from end to end encrypted?

The main thing is that the encryption keys never leave the browser. So even an engineer in control of the backend cannot see the information being saved. With E2E encryption the owner of the data usually also handles the decryption keys.

Aren't the engineers controlling the backend also controlling the frontend? What's stopping the frontend from exfiltrating the encryption keys?

Re: Show HN: Working on a Zero-Knowledge Daily Journaling App

#37

I've been journaling for about 15 years now. The big key to getting consistent at it was to stop worrying about trying to write a lot, or trying to write something insightful, and just write a sentence or two at a minimum. Often, that turns into more or into something insightful.

Having some sort of prompt helps, too, to keep up the habit. I use Day One, and they have a prompt that changes daily; today's is "What is something I want to do for myself in the coming year?" One of my favorites is "Describe something you learned from your mother" which is absolutely not something I would have thought to write about unprompted.

Another cool thing they have is templates. I use one called "Daily Self", which just asks a bunch of questions about my day: Who did I see? What's my mood like? What are my accomplishments? What did I eat? (I added a couple more questions, what I read and what music I listened to).

Both of these have been effective tools for me. If I have something on my mind, I write about it and don't worry about prompts. If the daily prompt interests me, I'll answer it. And if there's nothing else, I just open the Daily Self template and write about my day.

Re: Show HN: Working on a Zero-Knowledge Daily Journaling App

#38

what does Zero-knowledge mean and how it is different from end to end encrypted?

Zero knowledge means that you can convince someone that you know something without showing them that something.

More info on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof

I have a feeling that this is not zero knowledge and we’re all getting bamboozled.

Re: Show HN: Working on a Zero-Knowledge Daily Journaling App

#40

I've been journaling for about 15 years now. The big key to getting consistent at it was to stop worrying about trying to write a lot, or trying to write something insightful, and just write a sentence or two at a minimum. Often, that turns into more or into something insightful.

1/ what do you feel like you've learned or gained from this? 2/ do you ever go back and study what you wrote or is it more about giving your thoughts clarity today?

Not OP, but have been journaling for the past 7 years with some pauses in between.

The greatest tools for me are:

1. When I'm feeling as if I'm stuck I go back sometime (like a week) and confirm that I've indeed progressed.

2. My recollection of events is better just because I'm logging them. If I really want to confirm something I can go back and check. This is specially helpful in day to day issue resolution with my wife, which has been an important topic for us.

3. Sometimes I go back a year or more to just have some memories. It helps me to feel human because I had big troubles with long term memory.

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