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I want to lose every debate

sive.rs

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Re: I want to lose every debate

#221

Post by joenot443 »

robertlagrant wrote: post #117
dayjaby wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the interview with Jordan Peterson, where the interviewer said "so you're saying that ". So I agree with you as long as you don't fall into that trap of putting false words in the other mouth.

I agree - especially in an interview situation where many of us still have a vestigial instinct that an interviewer is not biased and is informed, we can assume that what they say is an objective interpretation. In that instance, doing that actually exposed it quite well. Jordan Peterson is able to respond off the cuff, so a reasonable percentage of the audience didn't walk away having assimilated the interviewer's v…

Always found it funny how admitting that Joe is a good interviewer is some type of a concession.

He’s probably the highest paid interviewer on the planet, of course he’s good at what he does! If he hadn’t found the ire of the online progressive crowd by letting on some unsavories, he’d probably be regarded super positively across the board. It’s crazy how many times I’ve seen web-activists go for blood with this guy and come up empty handed. Why is it hard for people to admit he’s just a really good podcaster?

Re: I want to lose every debate

#222

Post by steveBK123 »

kqr wrote: post #189
steveBK123 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These sorts of mindsets are predicated on the assumption that two people "talking it out" or possibly appealing to google will arrive on "the right answer". While in reality for many things there are judgement calls, trade-offs, unknowns and basically "it depends". In software, POCs, trial&error, R&D, etc help you test out the options. Many would do better to frame a discussion as surfacing the risks, trade-offs, pot…

Yes, this is the real purpose of debate. It's an adversarial method of ensuring all important factors in a decision are brought up and heard by all involved, so they can go on to make the tradeoffs they think are right on their own. Nobody has to win or convince anyone of anything.

I think you need to be mindful if your "adversary" enjoys the "adversarial" method or, like many introverted software devs, is simply expediting the conversation to get away from you.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#223

Post by etothepii »

bambax wrote: post #80
tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

> don’t debate at all, just listen This is what the OP says; while the title of the post is "I want to lose every debate" that's what he says in the end: > I never want to debate, but if I had to, I would hope to lose. And I get it, I think; but there is something to be said in favor of debating, not as a competition, but as a method of refining each other's ideas. Someone exposing a theory of theirs that's apparentl…

I think this is what I dislike most about Jordan Peterson. He appears to behave as if it's your fault if when you paraphrase what you think he's said back to him is not something he wants to agree with. IMHO, you haven't understood someone if you can't repeat it back to them in your own language, and there's a good probability that this is the fault of the explainer not the explainee.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#224

Post by robertlagrant »

joenot443 wrote: post #221
robertlagrant wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - especially in an interview situation where many of us still have a vestigial instinct that an interviewer is not biased and is informed, we can assume that what they say is an objective interpretation. In that instance, doing that actually exposed it quite well. Jordan Peterson is able to respond off the cuff, so a reasonable percentage of the audience didn't walk away having assimilated the interviewer's v…

Always found it funny how admitting that Joe is a good interviewer is some type of a concession. He’s probably the highest paid interviewer on the planet, of course he’s good at what he does! If he hadn’t found the ire of the online progressive crowd by letting on some unsavories, he’d probably be regarded super positively across the board. It’s crazy how many times I’ve seen web-activists go for blood with this guy…

I don't know. I didn't "admit" it; I just said it.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#225

Post by joenot443 »

Acutulus wrote: post #201
nibbleshifter wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing more tedious in adult life than some debate club weenie trying to turn every random fucking conversation into a debate. I strongly suspect debate club has a net negative impact on peoples social skills. It teaches a bunch of anti patterns to successful social interactions. Like, you will be shooting the shit with the lads down pub the once or twice you see them per year when this dickhead (and every…

I enjoy watching the occasional political twitch/youtube streamer or speaker. I couldn't tell you why; I don't feel that most of them leave me feeling any wiser after the conversations end. But the times I come across positions that I haven't traditionally considered or agreed with being well-stated and expounded upon is really enjoyable and usually makes it worth the minutes or hours burned having it playing lightly…

Totally agree re. Destiny. Between him, Vaush, Hasan (ugh), and the rest of them, I feel like we’re intellectually stunting an entire generation of teenagers.

I had a friend in NYC who used to read a tonne load of books but now just watches the 3h Hasan stream every day and then parrots every take the video game streamer says as if it’s gospel. I ended up cutting him out of my life because he just grew so tiring to be around; any conversation had to be directed to how idiotic the other side (code for republicans) is. As a non-American, it grew really old hearing rant about how stupid 40% of their fellow countrymen are.

Listening to someone pretend to get angry and punching down on people less educated isn’t intellectually nourishing, it’s reddit prison slop.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#226

Post by hungryforcodes »

Loose every debate. When you are on your deathbed you won't be reviewing these debates. You'll be either reliving those great experiences you had, or regretting the experiences you didn't have. Key word:

"Experiences"

Words don't count for anything. They're just sounds we make....

Re: I want to lose every debate

#227

Post by [deleted] »

dkarl wrote: post #218
tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

> don’t debate at all, just listen I think that depends on how familiar they are with your perspective. You don't want to think of the interaction as unequal, with you taking the higher perspective of observing both their ideas and yours, appreciating and integrating them, while they only exist in their own point of view, the observed to your observer. If they understand your perspective but you don't know theirs, it…

[deleted]

Re: I want to lose every debate

#228

Post by matwood »

nibbleshifter wrote: post #49
tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

There is nothing more tedious in adult life than some debate club weenie trying to turn every random fucking conversation into a debate. I strongly suspect debate club has a net negative impact on peoples social skills. It teaches a bunch of anti patterns to successful social interactions. Like, you will be shooting the shit with the lads down pub the once or twice you see them per year when this dickhead (and every…

> Its entirely possible to unlearn these behaviours. The first thing is to realize you don't always have to respond.

> Someone says something wrong in passing? Ignore it, move on.

This is a skill I've worked on for years. Not every conversation needs to be a teaching moment or life or death. Most are just people bullshitting around with each other. Constantly correcting or arguing doesn't help anyone.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#229

Post by stingraycharles »

noduerme wrote: post #151

I'm sorry, but I just can't read this. Ever since I put out an album on CDBaby in like 2004, which was Mr Sivers project at the time, I have been subjected to an endless stream of daily self promotion from this man. Somehow he evades all spam blocks and all attempts to remove myself from his lists. I have never seen another human being so self absorbed who consistently just had to have their meandering thoughts manua…

Can't you just block his emails?

Re: I want to lose every debate

#230

Post by the_af »

noduerme wrote: post #153
tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

Derek Sivers never listened to anything, he's a narcissistic maniac who floods the email boxes of everyone on every list he's ever had with self-help advice that's never more than the most thinly disguised self-promotion. Please stop talking as if his writing is profound.

Thanks for your comment. I thought I was going crazy with all the responses to what reads essentially like a self-help quality article.

Also, some of the examples are infuriating. So someone thinks poverty is not upsetting? Well, screw them. And the rest of those examples are so bland, how about "losing" every debate with these:

- Nazism is right.

- Rich people should become richer and poor people should become poorer.

- Women should not have equal rights or vote.

Go on, "listen and lose the debate", I'm sure it will be illuminating and productive.

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