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I want to lose every debate

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Re: I want to lose every debate

#141

Post by jterrys »

hgomersall wrote: post #91
nibbleshifter wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing more tedious in adult life than some debate club weenie trying to turn every random fucking conversation into a debate. I strongly suspect debate club has a net negative impact on peoples social skills. It teaches a bunch of anti patterns to successful social interactions. Like, you will be shooting the shit with the lads down pub the once or twice you see them per year when this dickhead (and every…

What do you talk about if not these issues? What is a conversation to you? It feels like you've successfully eliminated any disagreement from your conversations. Or is that just relevant to "shooting the shit with the lads down the pub once or twice a year"? When can we have discussions that might show disagreement?

It's entirely possible to have a conversation about all those topics but gets increasingly difficult when your friends fall in the cliche 80/20 category. 80% great people 20% not so much. I think parent poster has more of a problem with those types. You can chill and have fun but certain taboos open a can of worms that nobody wants to deal with especially when you just wanna decompress and have a few beers.

There's a time and place for everything and friendship dynamics get...complicated.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#142

Post by nibbleshifter »

hgomersall wrote: post #91
nibbleshifter wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing more tedious in adult life than some debate club weenie trying to turn every random fucking conversation into a debate. I strongly suspect debate club has a net negative impact on peoples social skills. It teaches a bunch of anti patterns to successful social interactions. Like, you will be shooting the shit with the lads down pub the once or twice you see them per year when this dickhead (and every…

What do you talk about if not these issues? What is a conversation to you? It feels like you've successfully eliminated any disagreement from your conversations. Or is that just relevant to "shooting the shit with the lads down the pub once or twice a year"? When can we have discussions that might show disagreement?

There is still usually some disagreement, but in many social settings (eg, having a few pints at the pub with people you rarely see), topics of discussion usually are what people have been up to, and other "light topics".

In most social situations "heavy" discussion or "debating" is entirely unwarranted and brings the overall mood down.

There are plenty of discussion groups and meetups if you want to hotly debate politics or suchlike!

Re: I want to lose every debate

#143

Post by mypastself »

concordDance wrote: post #47
somenameforme wrote: post #20

I believe I feel this way. I think many, if not the vast majority of us do. Now for a little test. When was the last time you lost a debate on a topic you felt strongly about? And not a debate that further reaffirmed your own biases (I used to believe X was bad, but wow I was wrong - it's WAY worse than bad) but actually a meaningful swap from (X is bad) to (X is not bad). In my case, the answer is never. Now I'd lik…

I've definitely had debates where I became a lot less sure of things I was reasonably informed on. A discussion that ends with "I'll have to go away and think about that" is a good one.

At a younger and more formative age, I’d engage in online discussions with people who had completely opposite views from mine. And I’ve had my mind changed plenty of times.

It’s happening less in the past decade or so, because I’ve already had many of the same discussions, and I’m sure partly because I’m becoming more rigid as I age.

But many online forums also reduce visibility of unpopular comments, and it’s harder to engage in some of those discussions. This is the reason I never downvote, even the most awful takes.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#145

Post by chaosite »

dayjaby wrote: post #69
noud wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone tries explaining something to me, I try to summarize what this person said when they are finished. E.g., "So you're saying that " or "It seems like ". This forces me to actively listen and remember what the other person has said. Afterwards, I'm looking for a response in the lines of "That's correct!" or "That's right!", or a correction and explanation that I haven't heard it correctly. Even if I don't a…

Reminds me of the interview with Jordan Peterson, where the interviewer said "so you're saying that ". So I agree with you as long as you don't fall into that trap of putting false words in the other mouth.

Interviews, especially televised ones, are a performance. You're explicitly not trying to convince the interviewer of anything, you're trying to give a good interview, ostensibly for the benefit of whoever is watching. Politicians, for example, are famous for doing whatever they can, in more and less elegant ways, to talk about the things that they are interested in conveying (the "talking points") and not about whatever it is the interviewer is asking.

This is not the point of this technique. This technique is about actually talking to a person, one-on-one, and trying to understand what they mean. No one else is watching, or at least the interview isn't being recorded.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#146

Post by mihaic »

nhooyr wrote: post #130
mihaic wrote: post #95

The first time I saw US-style collegiate debate, it seemed like a great mind-game. Over time I've come to consider it though as the sign of a bullshitting culture, where the truth is irrelevant, and winning the argument is all that matters. Professional debating and the article both feel wrong since they're missing the key element to me: synthesis of opposing ideas into something more than each individual side. It mi…

What do you mean US-style? As far as I'm aware, such debate clubs exist all throughout the world. The most famous of which are probably the Cambridge Union and the Oxford Union both in the UK.

It might be anglo-saxon style. I've never seen them in mainland Europe in this format.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#147

Post by jterrys »

_cenw wrote: post #23

Understanding perspectives is a useful skill. But it's not where having an educated opinion ends. I understand the desire of US fossil fuel companies to do fracking. They're not stupid or comically evil. But they can be greedy, misguided, selfish and too focused on short term gains (if you want to be extra accustory, "within their lifetime"). If you then move over to how much astroturfing is involved in pushing throu…

There's a method for deconstructing an opinion to eliminate bias and examine it through as objective of a lens as possible. This generally helps ground a lot of irrationality. Their conclusion might not necessarily be correct, but as you said, if you understand the perspective you can structurally address it.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#148

Post by highland586 »

zmxz wrote: post #28
highland586 wrote: post #10

Listening and taking someone's point of view has nothing to do with debating. When you're actually listening, you're not debating anymore. It's a life skill.

Why post this comment? Asking out of curiosity, trying to listen to view your point.

Some comments higher up conveyed it better than I did myself.

I feel like losing a debate and understanding someone else's point of view/learning from them are separate things. In my own experience a debate is not the ideal means of communication if I want to empathize or understand someone better. But as groestl points out, this is a personal matter.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#149

Post by hp6 »

IMO the author underestimates the positive effects of non combative debates between adults. For a long time before we could just google, debating was one of the main ways we used to check our ideas. Do you believe the sky is red? Try to debate someone and see if you can convince them. And while we now can just google most of the simpler things, that's not the case for complex ideas.

As the author notes by simply listening you will have a better view of the other persons arguments. But at the same time you deprive them from the opportunity of validating their ideas. Which is not a simple tradeoff.

Even worse most people will take silence as a form of agreement, which for a debate about C++ vs Rust is no big loss but is not true for a lot of other issues. And strangely enough the examples provided by the author are complex non trivial ideas no one should take for face value or agree by silence.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#150

Post by Lutger »

atoav wrote: post #41
sokoloff wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently read a similar point phrased in a way that really resonated: “if you’re right, you’ll still be right in five minutes” (so you might as well listen carefully in case you’re wrong).

While this is good advice, it is still in a debate-mindset where, ultimately, it is about "winning" a conversation. But if you argue with someone who holds factually wrong opinions is it truly winning "if you showed them" and they think "what an asshole" and move on? That type of person is practised at brushing off a debate loss. That means if you enjoy winning such a debate it tells more about you than about the per…

Debate can be fun (for some) as a game, and force you to articulate your position well, and you can learn from it. But there are different modes of engagement which are often much more helpful.

What people often don't realize is that winning a debate doesn't necessarily mean you side with the truth. A debate is aimed at winning on your existing opinions and the other losing. It is not aimed at discovery, validation or learning. Victory is more important than truth, and a lot of 'good moves' in a debate actually bring you further away from the truth.

If you engage in a conversation where you are both curious and submit to what's true (whatever that means), this conversation will rarely be a debate.

If a debate is in public between skilled debaters who show sportsmanship, then I think the public can gain a lot because a debate forces you to be very on point.

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