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I want to lose every debate

sive.rs

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Re: I want to lose every debate

#91

Post by hgomersall »

nibbleshifter wrote: post #49
tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

There is nothing more tedious in adult life than some debate club weenie trying to turn every random fucking conversation into a debate. I strongly suspect debate club has a net negative impact on peoples social skills. It teaches a bunch of anti patterns to successful social interactions. Like, you will be shooting the shit with the lads down pub the once or twice you see them per year when this dickhead (and every…

What do you talk about if not these issues? What is a conversation to you? It feels like you've successfully eliminated any disagreement from your conversations. Or is that just relevant to "shooting the shit with the lads down the pub once or twice a year"? When can we have discussions that might show disagreement?

Re: I want to lose every debate

#92

Post by underdeserver »

tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

If it's a lecture and not a conversation, I will usually end up thinking of counterpoints to what they said. And I believe that they have a good response to any counterpoint I have, and I want to hear it.

Otherwise I'm left with my counterpoints and I'm less engaged and less convinced.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#93

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

noud wrote: post #42
tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

When someone tries explaining something to me, I try to summarize what this person said when they are finished. E.g., "So you're saying that " or "It seems like ". This forces me to actively listen and remember what the other person has said. Afterwards, I'm looking for a response in the lines of "That's correct!" or "That's right!", or a correction and explanation that I haven't heard it correctly. Even if I don't a…

Verbal Aikido with Fred Kofman is right up that alley.

https://youtu.be/O6N9nvk8bvE

Re: I want to lose every debate

#95

Post by mihaic »

The first time I saw US-style collegiate debate, it seemed like a great mind-game. Over time I've come to consider it though as the sign of a bullshitting culture, where the truth is irrelevant, and winning the argument is all that matters.

Professional debating and the article both feel wrong since they're missing the key element to me: synthesis of opposing ideas into something more than each individual side. It might happen that at times this synthesis means that one side is completely discarded, but the goal of any debate to me should be to achieve the sum of all truths that are held by all parties.

Most places from from schools to success stories seem to fail in describing the purpose of debating to me because of that.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#96

Post by TrackerFF »

I’be learned to keep an open mind. Whenever I see something which I don’t understand, or something that screams “that’s just stupid” I try to wait with being the judge - because by experience, there’s usually some rationality behind that.

It might not make sense to me, but could make sense - even be very important to others.

Probably the people I enjoy the least to interact with, are the highly opinionated and cocksure people that simply refuse to expand their minds. Listen more, would be my best advice. Wait until you see a bigger picture, and don’t try to infer everything from the go.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#97

Post by nicbou »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #53
nicbou wrote: post #3

Great perspective. This is why I love browsing HN. Despite its relatively homogeneous userbase, people manage to stay civil when they disagree Elsewhere it's harder, but it still happens.

To a point; I have seen some greyed-out comments that just devolved into trolling. Thankfully, HN is self-regulating and has good moderators that help filter out these things.

The quality of the moderation can't be overstated. Dang holds this place together.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#98

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

bambax wrote: post #80
tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

> don’t debate at all, just listen This is what the OP says; while the title of the post is "I want to lose every debate" that's what he says in the end: > I never want to debate, but if I had to, I would hope to lose. And I get it, I think; but there is something to be said in favor of debating, not as a competition, but as a method of refining each other's ideas. Someone exposing a theory of theirs that's apparentl…

Discussion:

an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., especially to explore solutions; informal debate.

Discuss is first recorded in 1300–50; Middle English, either from Anglo-French discusser or directly from Latin discussus “struck asunder, shaken, scattered,” past participle of discutere, equivalent to dis- dis-1 + -cutere (combining form of quatere “to shake, strike”).

Re: I want to lose every debate

#99

Post by mihaic »

dtx1 wrote: post #94

[flagged]

I got the same impression, as coming from the modern style of "open-mindedness", which seems to be interpreted not as judging an idea by its merits alone, but by giving more weight to non-establishment ideas.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#100

Post by depot5 »

I remember an interview with a smart man at some medical device company. His most memorable thing started with the pretty boring, "what do you like least about work?" So, I replied, "arguing about plans for projects. Many co-workers get emotional there and resist bringing in facts." And his reply to that is what made me think he's pretty smart.

Arguing and debating about what to do is one of the biggest ways that managerial types can add value to a workplace. And it's even right to get a bit emotional, because the things decided in the meeting is probably going to decide stress, money, and life quality for everyone there. It's hard to change plans after deciding what to do in a big meeting. Bad managers will use debate tricks, but so will good ones. Everyone must be aware of these things, otherwise it's out of control. The expectation for senior employees is to be responsible and contribute important arguments in debate.

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