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I want to lose every debate

sive.rs

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Re: I want to lose every debate

#31

Post by acatnamedjoe »

paganel wrote: post #6

> The sex worker explains why she loves her job. I'm not going to comment on the other stuff, but we should stop with the sociopathic neo-liberal glorification of "sex work", which in the majority of cases is just human trafficking. I come from a town in Eastern Europe where one of the local mob guys has been caught with trafficking hundreds of (I guess mostly local) girls in Spain. I'm pretty sure many of those girl…

Perhaps we should credit OP with enough intelligence to assume that their debate with the sex worker didn't happen in a context where OP was their client.

Also the fact that sex work can be linked with human trafficking doesn't necessarily mean that sex work is bad. Working on a construction site can be a meaningful and rewarding career, but could also be utterly miserable if you've been trafficked there and are working in conditions of modern slavery. But that means human trafficking is bad, not that construction work is bad.

If anything, I think the human trafficking thing is an argument for NOT demonizing / criminalizing sex work, so that it becomes part of the visible, regulated economy, which would it turn make it harder for traffickers to exploit and control people.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#32

Post by glogla »

aflag wrote: post #30
paganel wrote: post #6

> The sex worker explains why she loves her job. I'm not going to comment on the other stuff, but we should stop with the sociopathic neo-liberal glorification of "sex work", which in the majority of cases is just human trafficking. I come from a town in Eastern Europe where one of the local mob guys has been caught with trafficking hundreds of (I guess mostly local) girls in Spain. I'm pretty sure many of those girl…

The fact that some prodtitutes are victims of human trafficking doesn't mean that all are. In fact, there are countries where sex work is legal but not human trafficking. So it's possible to even have a legal distinction there. I don't know how things are in Spain, but in the US there's a huge stigma associated with being a sex worker besides it being illegal and actively enforced. In these conditions it would be ver…

I'd like to believe that the people who are against sex work are actually thinking of the good of the sex workers and because of human trafficking.

Yet there is a lot of human trafficking in other areas, like farmwork or maids in the Western world, and the non-Western world is filled with sweatshops and literal slaves. And you never hear them mention it.

Which makes me convinced these people are just anti-sex work for religious or moral reasons (because they have internalized that sex is sinful or bad), reasons they then lie about.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#33

Post by paulpauper »

jez wrote: post #22

Every debate you lose is one where someone else won (and by the author’s logic, was deprived of the chance to lose). Some debates I want to win, for the simple joy of teaching someone something new. While it would be an optimal use of my time (from an information-theory point of view) for me to lose every debate I participate in, some debates are worth taking up for the chance to share.

I am wrong constantly. yet somehow I and others, who are also wrong, function and get by in life. It's kinda amazing how society works when so many people are wrong. If I had to guess it's the correcting mechanism from the exchange and discussion of ideas. Bad ideas tend to be weeded out or turn into better ones.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#34

Post by nordsieck »

There's a sort of hidden weakness to "losing": it's extremely difficult for people to correctly filter out BS at scale.

I'm not talking about on an individual encounter level - BS almost always loses to truth. But the percentage isn't so high that smart and/or successful people never fall for BS in their lifetime.

Especially since BS is under evolutionary pressure to be extremely believable.

That's a big part of the benefit of being part of the mainstream of knowledge. It's almost certain that large swaths of the mainstream are BS. But the mainstream is also exposed to the most criticism (at least the parts where criticism is acceptable), which means that BS tends to get filtered out more quickly as well.

In contrast, looking at "alternative" knowledge communities, they all generally have that whiff of being scammy. There's probably some truth in there, at least in some of those communities, but there's also a lot more BS.

So, I'm not saying to never lose. Losing is generally good. Just take care to make sure that you're actually losing.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#35

Post by pdpi »

I don't like the position of "losing is good".

I want to win every debate, because I define winning a debate as coming out of it knowing more that I did going in. Debating isn't a zero-sum game, me winning doesn't make you the loser.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#36

Post by paulpauper »

tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen.

There are two wanys of looking at this. Doing nothing means you lose the opportunity to possibly correct an innocent mistake or to set the record. But it's also possible you may have no clue what you are talking about.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#37

Post by The_Colonel »

somenameforme wrote: post #20

I believe I feel this way. I think many, if not the vast majority of us do. Now for a little test. When was the last time you lost a debate on a topic you felt strongly about? And not a debate that further reaffirmed your own biases (I used to believe X was bad, but wow I was wrong - it's WAY worse than bad) but actually a meaningful swap from (X is bad) to (X is not bad). In my case, the answer is never. Now I'd lik…

> but actually a meaningful swap from (X is bad) to (X is not bad). In my case, the answer is never.

I think you did, otherwise you would never change your opinions, which I doubt.

But I think it works more subtly. I've noticed that when I lose a debate, my immediate emotional response is rejection - the person is wrong, my opinion is right, even though I couldn't effectively justify it.

But once the emotional hurt of loss wears off, it will sometimes (not always) move my position, sometimes a little bit, sometimes completely. It can take days, months, sometimes years.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#38

Post by donkeyd »

tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

> the point of a conversation is to win

I have a feeling that a lot of people think this. Coming to an 'agree to disagree' is really had for some people. Sometimes there's no other option though, because both people seem to know the same facts, they just have differing opinions on how to deal with those facts.

> take note of how much of the time you spend formulating a response

I've been paying attention to this for years now after hearing or reading something similar. I haven't been able to change this, but sometimes it's helped me move back to listening and not missing important details because of it.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#39

Post by personjerry »

Remember, if you're winning, if you're correct, if you're talking, then you're not learning. Only when you're wrong and you recognize you don't have the full picture can you grow. I think our education systems and parents often frame being wrong as bad, but it's precisely the opposite.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#40

Post by psychphysic »

It bothers me that people argue so poorly.

That's why debate exists. And why some people excel at podcasts Joe Rogan being an examplar.

His best debates have very similar formats.

"Tell me about"/"why do you think"

"What about X"

"So you're saying Y?"

"Wouldn't that mean Z"

People are bothered because he rarely ever seems to shoot others down just gets them to lay out their points and fleshout reasoning.

The only time he shoots you down is if he thinks you don't have an explanation around some aspects of your point. But his job is done the audience can make up its own mind.

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