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D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

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Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get that from? WMATA’s farebox recovery ratio is 24%, as of 2020[1]. Edit: And from a quick look, that’s high for the US. The average seems closer to 10-15%. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

fwiw, Caltrain's farebox recovery rate going into COVID was among the highest in the US at around 73%. Bart around 72%. WMATA was about 33%. Muni is among the lowest at 23%. [1] I agree farebox recovery rate is not something to optimize for. Public services don't lose money, they cost money. Nobody talks about how much the army loses. However. The choice was between (a) eliminating the $666M farebox recovery and taki…

> Nobody talks about how much the army loses.

I mean, I do. But that boils mostly down to me perceiving more value in a robust public transit network than in a bloated MIC.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#102

I knew a woman in DC who was late for work because a guy tried to get on the bus, was denied entry because he couldnt/wouldn't pay, and so he pulled out a gun and shot the bus driver dead. She wasn't even phased. This was about 15 years ago. Proof of fare is better than having transit employees be the enforcers. Free is even better, theoretically. But be wary, transit in DC may turn into moving homeless encampment as…

With apologies & respect, this is not anything near a common occurrence in DC.

http://google.com/search?q=dc+bus+driver+death

There are very very few incidents of bus drivers dying in DC. I would highly recommend not taking this fear-instilling anecdote as a real sign of what is.

I'm not saying to disregard this account, give it the benefit of a doubt, but it also is very new, and has had a pretty contentious first steps. I too am pretty contentious here & there my years, and I'm not at all saying to disregard one another. But this kind of high-brand FUD rather frustates me, & I feel like should set us on guard: it goes deeply to an emotional vulnerability we all have, quickly, rapidly. I genuinely want to believe this event here is not a complete fabrication. But the only bus driver gun-death I can find is linked to the 2002 DC sniper attacks. That this new account demonstrates a particular bias, from what I have seen, adds to my hestiancy to take this as real. Again, I very very much do not want to say to disregard, I do not want to attack the person, but this claim seems fundamentally suspect, & the history seems at least a bit murky, and I'd say this comment deserves caution & question, rather than acceptance.

We have some fairly notorious bus lines in DC. But like, overall, the actual scary shit nearly never ever happens. Oh look, some loud people are drinking on the 7X's or the X2 again. Generally it's not really a real problem & we kind of ignore it & eventually they get off, or, if they start causing a scene, the bus driver asks them to leave, and after a couple dozen seconds they get the point that this is not really winnable & wander off. I've seen some people get mad at each other, but someone gets off & the drama dissipates. The notoriety is more about characters & ridiculousness, thank heavens, and rarely about real actual in fact for real problems. Those, from what I have heard in my many years in DC, have been pretty few.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#103
post #92

By enforcing a "user pays" model on public transport, we are requiring that the most disadvantaged support their own transport system, which they use to get around to go to jobs to support the wealthy. Meanwhile, the richest people, who are benefitting from the availability and mobility of labour, can afford to move around in luxury vehicles (sometimes driven by others). This is a negative feedback loop which renders…

Like the car tax idea, but free attracts the destitute and mentally ill. Offer the working poor and looking a transit pass instead.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the fees there to actually provide a meaningful portion of the funding, or just to make rich people who don’t use public transit feel like it’s more fair because the poor people don’t get to ride for free? I’d be surprised if the fees are meaningful on many transit systems, especially if you also throw out the costs of selling the tickets and enforcement.

> I’d be surprised if the fees are meaningful on many transit systems, especially if you also throw out the costs of selling the tickets and enforcement. Almost no public transit system has a farebox recovery rate even close to 100%. For municipal service (ie, excluding specialty transit), even 50% is almost unheard-of in the US, and only a few systems in Europe exceed 50% as well. In the US, the better transit syste…

Is advertising revenue for public transport at a level where it's useful incorporating into data?

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#105
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current fuel tax (in the USA) not enough. Federal fuel taxes have not been raised in 30 years and not adjusted for inflation/cost of living. I’m sure it would be a political death wish to try to raise it again. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_Sta...

Fuel tax is complicated by the fact that poorer families tend to live further away from work and thus drive more, both because housing is cheaper the further away from a city you get, but also because non-skilled labor doesn't aggregate along transit corridors the same way it does for office workers. So a low fuel tax is in effect a subsidy to the poor, notwithstanding that it also benefits corporations which maintai…

> Public transit can be a remedy, but outside Manhattan I don't think any locale in the U.S. has remotely the density to make it truly viable at scale for the poor and working classes.

Chicken and egg. Density is built along transit because transit supports dense houses. Build transit, get density. Fail to build transit, get sprawl.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#106
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your issue seems to be with funding. Fares are usually quite a small component of transit system’s budgets. We don’t require users of city streets to pay fares to use that transportation infrastructure, with exception of the occasional toll-funded highway/bridge/tunnel, and we spend many many billions of tax dollars more on those than we do on public transit. If free transit is a bad idea so are free city streets.

Fares revenues make up half of WMATA’s operating budget, which is on the low side. The London Tube fully covers its operating costs.

Tube fares are extremely expensive compared with other European transit systems.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#107
post #77
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caltrain is definitely cheaper than driving for one person. As an example, Palo Alto to San Francisco caltrain is $7.70 for a 32 mile ride. That's 24 cents per mile. The IRS mileage rate is 62 cents per mile. Even if you add $5.50 for parking at the station, it's 41 cents per mile.

I drive a cheap EV which I charge for free. A marginal mile costs me about 18 cents. On top of that I'm usually traveling to SF to visit friends with my wife. Hard to justify taking the train.

How do you figure 18 cents? a $30k EV amortized across 200k miles is 15 cents alone. Add any maintenance on top of that and you're easily over 18 cents of marginal cost per mile before electricity or any other amortizable costs (risk of accident, tolls, parking, etc).

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#108

Taken the bus/metro in Los Angeles? Meth, knives, people taking a piss right there... My wife refuses to take any kind of public transportation alone.

If you want transportation free of sleepers and walking dead, there must be fares and gates. Otherwise you’ll end up with the horrors of the LA Metro… meth heads smoking up, stairs dripping with blood, etc.

Some Americans will believe anything that helps them push away the thought that their social safety net is broken.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which European cities are those? I heard one or two with free transit, which ones are "nominally priced"? In Germany, it’s decently expensive.

Tallinn is the most famous free one, I think. In terms of nominal pricing, I was thinking of Grenoble, where it was around $2 USD equivalent when I was there there. Edit: Another example is Prague, which is around $1.

Tallinn is not (all?) free. The tram is at least €1.50 for 90 mins transfer. Helsinki is €3.10

I live in Helsinki and spent a lot of time last year in Tallinn - the ‘transit is free in Europe’ thing is very much an exception rather than a rule.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#110
post #5

Free transit is stupid. When surveyed, the huge majority (98%) of weekday transit riders say they want increased service over decreased prices. Everyone wants 10 minute or less headways. People will pay 3 dollars for a bus ride if the line has 10 minute headways or less and signal priority, but they won't take the bus if its stuck in traffic and has 30 minute headways. The reality is that transit funding for free tra…

It's been free in my city since 2011 and it's great from this smaller town's perspective. Perhaps "stupid" applies to big cities or certain demographics, but to smaller towns and low income people it's a proverbial godsend for transportation to work, school, etc.
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