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NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

theintercept.com

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Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#401

Post by TaylorAlexander »

JamesBarney wrote: post #399
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this understanding is incorrect. My understanding is that housing services, mental health services, medical services, transportation infrastructure, and related things like maternity and paternity leave, good labor rights, good pay and fair working conditions all lead to a reduction in low level crime and homelessness. There is no need for a single silver bullet if we have a collection of policies that work.…

The fact that some places with affordable housing have much lower crime rates is incredibly far from a replicated RCT (or RCT like data).

This is true, but I think RCT-like conditions are hard to create in the social sciences. This does not mean we are unable to make informed policy choices based on the available data.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#402

Post by dang »

adenozine wrote: post #400
dang wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you please stop posting like this? It's very obviously not what HN is for, if you'll read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . You may be completely right but this is not the way to go about showing it to everyone. We don't want garden-variety internet flamewar here—it's exactly the opposite of curious conversation.

Dang, garden variety is normalization of extremely victimizing behaviors surrounding an industry? My posts haven’t been rude or unclear. I never made a sharp or crass remark directed at anybody in particular. You’re characterizing my dismissal of defensive statements about pornography as inciting a flamewar? I’ve read the guidelines. I need for you to explain to me in clear and unambiguous terms exactly what I’ve sai…

Your comments in this thread include fulmination/name-calling ("Absolutely sickening") and flamebait ("Frankly, you can all spare me the bullshit") in the sense that the HN guidelines use those terms.

Also snark/sneering ("Ah, I didn't realize this was a safe space for perverts who hate women. Cool. Cool cool cool. Very cool.")

We ban accounts that post like that, regardless of how right they are or feel they are, so please don't keep posting like that.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#403

Post by JamesBarney »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #401
JamesBarney wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that some places with affordable housing have much lower crime rates is incredibly far from a replicated RCT (or RCT like data).

This is true, but I think RCT-like conditions are hard to create in the social sciences. This does not mean we are unable to make informed policy choices based on the available data.

For interventions they're not that hard, and 99% of correlations that suggest interventions fail to find an effect when they try and RCT. While it's true it's evidence, it is very very very weak evidence.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#404

Post by TaylorAlexander »

JamesBarney wrote: post #403
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, but I think RCT-like conditions are hard to create in the social sciences. This does not mean we are unable to make informed policy choices based on the available data.

For interventions they're not that hard, and 99% of correlations that suggest interventions fail to find an effect when they try and RCT. While it's true it's evidence, it is very very very weak evidence.

> 99% of correlations that suggest interventions fail to find an effect

I'm genuinely trying to square your thinking with the specific services I listed in an earlier comment:

> housing services

It seems obvious and intuitive to me that providing discounted housing services would clearly have an effect. Clearly if we can manage spiraling housing costs, more people can stay housed and fewer people will be destitute. And the case in Vienna supports this notion: https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_articl...

Have you found an RCT-like study that provided affordable housing of this quality and failed to find an effect?

> mental health services

I would be surprised if you found that providing quality mental health services does not have an effect.

> medical services

This is another one which seems obvious and intuitive to me. A fair number of people in the USA end up homeless or destitute due to medical debt or lack of appropriate medical care. Every other major country offers some form of free medical care and I cannot see how this would fail to have an effect.

> transportation infrastructure

If you follow the urbanists on youtube or websites like Strong Towns it seems clear that requiring everyone to have a car places a heavy burden on the poor, and it seems obvious to me that if you have good transportation infrastructure (high speed rail between cities and good metro rail in cities, appropriate zoning for walkable neighborhoods), then it becomes much easier for the poor. This is not something that you can easily study as an RCT.

> and related things like maternity and paternity leave, good labor rights, good pay and fair working conditions

Again these are obviously beneficial.

I feel like I provided a lot of good examples and I am surprised by the continued assertion of "very very very weak evidence". Really? For every one of these things?

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#405

Post by JamesBarney »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #404
JamesBarney wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For interventions they're not that hard, and 99% of correlations that suggest interventions fail to find an effect when they try and RCT. While it's true it's evidence, it is very very very weak evidence.

> 99% of correlations that suggest interventions fail to find an effect I'm genuinely trying to square your thinking with the specific services I listed in an earlier comment: > housing services It seems obvious and intuitive to me that providing discounted housing services would clearly have an effect. Clearly if we can manage spiraling housing costs, more people can stay housed and fewer people will be destitute. A…

Let me start with what I agree with, we should try all of them in a fashion that tests if they work, and if any of them did role them out everywhere.

I also agree that many of these have beneficial effects besides a reduction in crime and we should maybe provide these services anyway because it makes peoples lives better.

I also agree we should manage spiraling housing costs by upzoning everywhere. I think affordable housing could actually make things worse by concentrating poverty.

I'm not convince transportation infrastructure helps the poor more than direct cash transfers. The US is really terrible at building cost effective transportation infrastructure, and most of the places that have it are terrible places to be poor like San Francisco or New York.

The only example I need is one replicated natural experiment or RCT that shows any of these working.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#406

Post by TaylorAlexander »

JamesBarney wrote: post #405
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 99% of correlations that suggest interventions fail to find an effect I'm genuinely trying to square your thinking with the specific services I listed in an earlier comment: > housing services It seems obvious and intuitive to me that providing discounted housing services would clearly have an effect. Clearly if we can manage spiraling housing costs, more people can stay housed and fewer people will be destitute. A…

Let me start with what I agree with, we should try all of them in a fashion that tests if they work, and if any of them did role them out everywhere. I also agree that many of these have beneficial effects besides a reduction in crime and we should maybe provide these services anyway because it makes peoples lives better. I also agree we should manage spiraling housing costs by upzoning everywhere. I think affordable…

I encourage you to read the short article about Vienna, which explicitly addresses the concern of concentrating poverty. Vienna has avoided this by building good affordable housing in desirable locations which is owned by the city government, and then they only require people to be poor upon entering the housing. As their income rises, which is a predictable effect of affordable housing, they are allowed to stay. This means that the housing is mixed income rather than concentrated poverty. The city owns or controls approximately half of all available housing units in the city, which helps keep private rents reasonable as well through market pressure. https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_articl...

I think the research is out there to support these policies, whether the data is an RCT or something else, as I hope the above argument highlights. If you remain neutral while you wait for an RCT, there can be real world consequences for vulnerable people.

I do agree that the US is terrible at building transportation infrastructure, but as advocates like Strong Towns point out, we're actually bankrupting local towns with car-dependent sprawl (due to high tax burdens to maintain the infrastructure) so we really must improve that one regardless. That it will benefit the poor is simply another reason to accelerate these changes.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#407

Post by adenozine »

dang wrote: post #402
adenozine wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dang, garden variety is normalization of extremely victimizing behaviors surrounding an industry? My posts haven’t been rude or unclear. I never made a sharp or crass remark directed at anybody in particular. You’re characterizing my dismissal of defensive statements about pornography as inciting a flamewar? I’ve read the guidelines. I need for you to explain to me in clear and unambiguous terms exactly what I’ve sai…

Your comments in this thread include fulmination/name-calling ("Absolutely sickening") and flamebait ("Frankly, you can all spare me the bullshit") in the sense that the HN guidelines use those terms. Also snark/sneering ("Ah, I didn't realize this was a safe space for perverts who hate women. Cool. Cool cool cool. Very cool.") We ban accounts that post like that, regardless of how right they are or feel they are, so…

From this I can only take away that you are not able to explain your position.

Trust me, the surprise is overwhelming!

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#408

Post by jeffwask »

D13Fd wrote: post #156
jeffwask wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree he earned punishment and it was a serious crime. (he says the gun was never loaded but that's neither here nor there). My question is the scope and breadth of the punishment and whether the system is about restitution and rehabilitation or pure punitive action. How do people come out after 10+ years having received no training, support or rehabilitation and step into a completely changed society from wh…

> How do people come out after 10+ years having received no training, support or rehabilitation and step into a completely changed society from when they went in. Completely agreed. And it's not just that -- ex-prisoners also come out without any social network other than what they may have gained among prisoners, and they face extreme social stigma that makes finding work difficult even if they had the skills and co…

One positive has been that he didn't have any issues getting work. He had a factory job within a few days and has already been offered potential advancement to a salaried role. I wouldn't be surprised if some of that stemmed from white middle class privilege and the fact that it was a impulsive action (potentially related to mental illness) on his part rather than a lifetime of gang affiliations that led to his crimes. He has no visible markers of incarceration and easily blends into any crowd of middle aged white guys.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#409

Post by JamesBarney »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #406
JamesBarney wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start with what I agree with, we should try all of them in a fashion that tests if they work, and if any of them did role them out everywhere. I also agree that many of these have beneficial effects besides a reduction in crime and we should maybe provide these services anyway because it makes peoples lives better. I also agree we should manage spiraling housing costs by upzoning everywhere. I think affordable…

I encourage you to read the short article about Vienna, which explicitly addresses the concern of concentrating poverty. Vienna has avoided this by building good affordable housing in desirable locations which is owned by the city government, and then they only require people to be poor upon entering the housing. As their income rises, which is a predictable effect of affordable housing, they are allowed to stay. Thi…

Sorry my idea isn't to sit out on the sidelines.

It's the difference between "Look at all these policies that reduce crime." to "Here are some good ideas for policies we should test out in as controlled an environment as possible to see if they reduce crime".

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#410

Post by afarrell »

wefarrell wrote: post #271
afarrell wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> incentivizing prisons to actually rehabilitate Parenting is hard. Parenting someone who is already an adult is harder still. Beyond incentives, they might not have the resources to rehabilitate the prisoners.

They're spending over half a million dollars a year to house prisoners[0]. The resources are there but they're not using them for rehabilitation. [0] https://comptroller.nyc.gov/newsroom/comptroller-stringer-co...

Part of the problem is that caring for someone requires their cooperation or else it is exhausting. Caring for the least cooperative people requires even more resources.

To illustrate this: If you lived in a 3-bedroom apartment, how would you personally feel about taking on the task of housing someone off of craigslist in exchange for them promising to pay 1/2 of your rent?

How would you feel about doing that for someone recently convicted of larceny or arson or selling fentanyl?

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