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Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

latimes.com

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Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#371

Post by screwturner68 »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #94
s1artibartfast wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that they have changed. People brought it up before and people are bringing it up now and they'll continue bringing it up. I think the tech workers are generally still opposed to the idea

It doesn’t make sense to unionize when you are powerful and you can use “merit” to raise your power and compensation. As the economy downturns, more and more software devs on the low end will be pushed to the point where unionization makes sense. They were never really powerful or well paid, but had hope of rising to a higher class. It’s that aspiration that lead to people discounting the ida of unionization.

Part of unionization is standardization of skillsets. Any journeyman plumber should be able to replace any other journeyman plumber, there's an apprentice program and years of training associated with becoming a journeyman. How's that going to work in IT we have massively diverse skill sets and I don't see anyway we could standardize because technology is moving too fast. We might be able to have a general apprentice program where you qualify for certain programming languages/jobs and can get qualified for other languages/jobs by taking additional training, similar to how a pilot gets qualified for different air craft. That said I don't know how everyone if going to feel about getting paid the same wage as the person next to them, tech is a pretty independent group with huge egos. I do think certain ops jobs could be unionized, helpdesk, networking and the like those are defined skills that can be taught repeatedly.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#372

Post by cloutchaser »

Apocryphon wrote: post #350
cloutchaser wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

They used to not be paid so much in the past. What's the scientific rationale that they should be pay more than before? I don't think there's any science involved on either side, it's simply a cultural practice that has arise with the growth of corporate earnings. On the flip side, if average worker comp has arisen only 12% since 1978, maybe that's not a scientifically-determined outcome either. https://www.cnbc.com/…

Actually there is a reason for the increase recently, globalisation and the internet. While a top exec in the 1960 might be serving a few million customers, maybe tens of millions, now it is in the billions (also population has increased).

By the way, do you support the corporate raiders of the 1980s who were also extremely annoyed at how much execs got paid and fired them and reduced their pay? And they actually did it by putting their money where their mouth was and became shareholders in these companies, at great personal risk to themselves.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#373

Post by gingerrr »

braingenious wrote: post #325
gingerrr wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to derail, but I think you're conflating "right to work" with "at-will employment" here - you're describing at-will, where the employee/employer relationship can be severed by either party at any time for any reason. "Right to work" is a union-busting concept: regardless of collective bargaining agreements an individual has the right to their employment, whether or not they pay dues to a union. Just wanted to cor…

> "Right to work" is a union-busting concept… Yep! “Right to work” is a way of framing union-busting rhetoric in a way that appeals to people that consider themselves to be libertarian(ish), so I’ve intentionally used that phrasing to try to highlight that both unions and union busting can fit under “libertarian” depending on a person’s intent.

Got it! Ignore my "correction" then, makes sense and definitely paints the point well.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#374

Post by spacemadness »

deanCommie wrote: post #236
Phlarp wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been making pithy comments about tech bro unionization on the orange site for years now and I know exactly what you're talking about. Anything that even smelled like worker solidarity was shot down with vacuous logic about how the 10x engineers in big tech can't possibly be asked to associate with a lowly web master in a fly-over state. Then suddenly today I said something and instantly got 100 upvotes...

It's hackernews. Everyone here thinks they're the next Drew Houston or Brian Chesky. They're more likely to empathize with the CEO who's complaining how hard it is to fire people in Europe than with the average even 10x tech worker.

It’s the tech heavy version of the Financial Times comment section constantly taking the sides of business leaders no matter what.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#375

Post by buzzert »

andsoitis wrote: post #144
gilbert_vanova wrote: post #11

I had a manager namecheck the layoffs as a reason they don't need to move on addressing any of our team's concerns about working conditions. Same manager invoked the Nuremburg Defense the other day. Trying times.

> addressing any of our team's concerns about working conditions What are some of your team's concerns about working conditions? Are you guys being treated badly?

I bet this won’t get answered.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#376

Post by Phlarp »

paulcole wrote: post #320
traverseda wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer without any formal education (I dropped out of high school) my worry is that unions will be used to enforce credentialism.

How has this shaken out w/ unions in other industries? Do they push this sort of credentialism?

It's as varied as the work-- Lawyers and Doctors have professional organizations that enforce very strict credentialism, Screen actors have a loose org that enforces a firm "floor" for work conditions without hindering the ability for top talent to negotiate eye popping compensation packages. Pro sports players associations are another good example of low touch organizations that get results for everyone without holding back the super stars.

We can have a setup where everyone benefits, people who think they are top talent are free to capitalize on that fact if they truly are top talent, while also being protected from predatory employment practices if/when they aren't top talent. Even if we recognize the existence of 10x or 100x engineers surely we must also recognize that they are humans that will have family issues, mental health concerns or struggle with burnout / purpose / direction during a multi-decade career. No shortage of evidence that tech companies are working together to suppress engineering wages, why wouldn't engineers respond by working together to invigorate wages?

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#377

Post by screwturner68 »

aeternum wrote: post #183
s1artibartfast wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that they have changed. People brought it up before and people are bringing it up now and they'll continue bringing it up. I think the tech workers are generally still opposed to the idea

Imagine how terrible it would be to be on a team with subpar engineers with some kind of tenure / union protection so they cannot be fired. I think this is a big reason tech workers are opposed to the idea.

I don't have to imagine that I work in it every day, I think it's pretty standard to have a few A students a bunch of C students and a few F students. The problem with the union is the F students don't get fired and if they do they just move them to another open slot assuming they have seniority. On the plus side you're not going to get replaced at 45 by some low-end college grad because they'll work for half the price, is job security worth carrying a little extra load?

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#378

Post by Apocryphon »

cloutchaser wrote: post #372
Apocryphon wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They used to not be paid so much in the past. What's the scientific rationale that they should be pay more than before? I don't think there's any science involved on either side, it's simply a cultural practice that has arise with the growth of corporate earnings. On the flip side, if average worker comp has arisen only 12% since 1978, maybe that's not a scientifically-determined outcome either. https://www.cnbc.com/…

Actually there is a reason for the increase recently, globalisation and the internet. While a top exec in the 1960 might be serving a few million customers, maybe tens of millions, now it is in the billions (also population has increased). By the way, do you support the corporate raiders of the 1980s who were also extremely annoyed at how much execs got paid and fired them and reduced their pay? And they actually did…

Why hasn't worker pay arisen proportionally, since if they're working for multinationals they are similarly serving millions to billions?

> And they actually did it by putting their money where their mouth was and became shareholders in these companies, at great personal risk to themselves.

Judging by the steady growth in exec comp in Figure A of the second link, it doesn't seem like their efforts were very successful.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#379

Post by screwturner68 »

traverseda wrote: post #139
paulcole wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people on HN think of themselves as "top talent" (a barf phrase if there ever was one) and convinced themselves that they would be the ones held back by a union.

As a developer without any formal education (I dropped out of high school) my worry is that unions will be used to enforce credentialism.

do you mean an apprentice program, because I think that would be great. I can't tell you how many "Senior" devs I've dealt with that don't know their ass from their elbow. At least with an apprentice program there is an expectation that you know certain things to become a journeyman, as things sit now you have no idea what base of knowledge someone has you're just guess from what's on the resume.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#380

Post by bbor »

mjburgess wrote: post #295
bbor wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re applying a “conspiratorial” vibe that isn’t necessary - employers are naturally incentivized to keep employees insecure and underpaid (relative to what they’d be paid if they organized, at least). It sounds like you’re knowledgeable on these topics, so I’d be surprised if you disagreed with any of these assertions: 1. Big tech would be willing to burn billions of dollars to crush any chance of tech uni…

Employers are incentivised to retain the employment of their staff, which given the existence of other companies , means they're strongly incentivised NOT to have their employees "insecure".

If an employee is insecure in their position as a “senior Big Tech dev” (read: top 1-2% income earner), they’ll be less likely to look for other jobs, slack off knowing they could get another job, or fight for raises / process improvements / anything, really.

I guess the real point I’m making is that the “industry-wide” nature of these layoffs are an essential component.

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