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Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

latimes.com

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Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#331

Post by MuffinFlavored »

bushbaba wrote: post #153
JackFr wrote: post #86

So big tech has 220,000 layoffs and there is not the merest hint of a blip in the unemployment rate. This is not a tragedy - these people are going to find jobs, good jobs. In fact it's quite likely that they will go into roles which might do something other than online advertising. You know, something useful.

Unemployment doesn’t show laid off employees who aren’t yet collecting unemployment benefits. These tech workers got at least 60 days of severance thanks to the warn act.

> Unemployment doesn’t show laid off employees who aren’t yet collecting unemployment benefits. These tech workers got at least 60 days of severance thanks to the warn act.

I could be wrong but somebody who makes like... on average $150k-$200k/yr (average tech worker, low from what I've read here on comments, most "high level" people have total comp closer to $300k-$500k/yr but I'll ignore any stock grants and just focus on salary) is making like $12.5k/mo-$16.6k/mo gross

> The weekly benefit rate is capped at a maximum amount based on the state minimum wage. For 2022, the maximum weekly benefit rate is $804. For 2023, the maximum weekly benefit rate is $830.

> Your weekly benefit amount will be about 50 percent of your average weekly wage up to a state maximum of $857.

Just some random quick Googles since it varies by state.

On the low end these laid off people made $2,880/week gross.

The absolute max the state will provide is 30% of their gross pay, aka a 70% pay reduction.

I wonder how many will even bother to file/go through the headache/process. Sounds like that effort would be better spent burning leet code practice to find an actual job.

But I say that as somebody who isn't desperate/has ample savings. I'm sure I would say something different otherwise.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#332

Post by plorkyeran »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #94
s1artibartfast wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that they have changed. People brought it up before and people are bringing it up now and they'll continue bringing it up. I think the tech workers are generally still opposed to the idea

It doesn’t make sense to unionize when you are powerful and you can use “merit” to raise your power and compensation. As the economy downturns, more and more software devs on the low end will be pushed to the point where unionization makes sense. They were never really powerful or well paid, but had hope of rising to a higher class. It’s that aspiration that lead to people discounting the ida of unionization.

It makes sense to unionize when you're powerful because that's when you actually have the leverage to put things in place in preparation for the inevitable downturn. Waiting until you need the union is too late.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#333

Post by Phlarp »

kilgnad wrote: post #223
tracker1 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mixed bag... when your near the ceiling for a given area, it's harder to think about scaling back. These past few months in tech have been really reminding me of the .com bust in 2000-2002, where a lot of the big tech companies scaled back, others fell over (mostly coastal areas) and about a year later it hit secondary cities (Phoenix, SLC, Houston, etc)... I was pretty much unable to find anything for about 6…

>It's a mixed bag... when your near the ceiling for a given area, it's harder to think about scaling back. A union doesn't necessarily have to negotiate maximum ceiling salaries. It doesn't have to negotiate salaries at all. It can just be an entity to prevent the company from letting you go just because the numbers look 2% better. I think the best of both worlds is when the union only negotiates a minimum salary.

SAG has absolutely no trouble raising the standards of the entire industry without any "ceilings" for the highest paid members, nor has it become a credentialism machine like state bar associations or the AMA.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#334

Post by zuminator »

ianbutler wrote: post #59
Clent wrote: post #19

Intentional or not, worker power has been crushed by these layoffs.

Really? It's like not even 10% of the swe workforce. If this crushes you, you had no power to begin with. It's more like a reminder of that fact. It's all BS though, stocks are back to 2019 levels, one of the highest periods ever, in a field where there's still not enough bodies for all the jobs. I'm pretty sure that leverage hasn't changed. Fundamentally however, the success of this role will not last. It's just a m…

Under usual circumstances a laid off tech worker might be able to line up multiple offers elsewhere. But with companies contracting everywhere, suddenly there's the scary prospect that it might not be so easy to land a new position, and just knowing there's uncertainty ahead could make someone feel a lot more powerless, especially if they haven't been entirely diligent in upgrading their skills.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#335

Post by mrisoli »

dubcanada wrote: post #219
AlwaysRock wrote: post #175

Right before COVID-19 stay at home order in Chicago, a bunch of improvisers who preformed at the popular i.o theater put together a list of demands which basically asked for a bunch of changes to make the lives of performers better. They were not going to perform until those changes were made. The owner didnt respond for a few days and then said, "Hey! Heard you. Great valid concerns. But I'm actually shutting the th…

This is sadly why you need political power. People with money can afford WAY longer then you to just say "nah..."

Or in other words, "Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#336

Post by jakelazaroff »

dasil003 wrote: post #300
jakelazaroff wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have the right to build a business. You have the right to try , of course, but it's not like there's some natural law that you should be able to succeed. So appeals to "it's hanging on by a thread!" don't really do much for me; maybe the viability of your business relies on an imbalance of power vs. your employees, in which case I'd really rather the thread be cut. Your comment about firing people is kinda…

You're missing the point. It's not about entitlement or rights. The point the GP is making is that in a true startup situation, either everyone rows in the same direction, or the business fails and everyone loses their job. This is a very different situation from an established large-scale business. You might say: "doesn't matter, worker rights are worker rights, and it's on the entrepreneur to make sure he can meet…

I'm not missing the point. I just disagree with it. I don't see "business fails" as an inherently bad thing. Some businesses aren't viable and that's okay!

To use your rowing analogy: presumably, unless someone is actively trying to sabotage the team, everyone is rowing in the same direction. The issue is more, are the rowers being given enough breaks? Are they demanding too many? Is the captain beating them if they don't row fast enough? etc etc. We can quibble about where the lines are. But if the boat can't stay afloat without pushing workers to their breaking points, then maybe the boat deserves to sink.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#337

Post by [deleted] »

thisarticle wrote: post #278
pwthornton wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big tech layoffs should work differently than most industries and may not impact unemployment as much. Big tech employees a lot of H1B visas holders. If they cannot quickly find a new job, they will have to leave the country.

Yes, temporary workers who are no longer needed must leave the country. Because their positions are temporary. It’s in the name.

[deleted]

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#338

Post by wolrah »

politician wrote: post #264
dubcanada wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sadly why you need political power. People with money can afford WAY longer then you to just say "nah..."

The power to compel others is dangerous.

> The power to compel others is dangerous.

When one side already has massive power, it takes massive power to balance it.

It is very rare that an individual will ever have the ability to stand up to a multi-billion dollar company on their own, so they need a powerful union who can actually legitimately threaten that company to be able to keep the company in check.

Either that or the companies need to have their own power strongly curtailed, which can only be done by a powerful government.

Pick your poison.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#339

Post by zackmorris »

Phlarp wrote: post #20

Guess tech workers should have unionized when they had the chance. As if capital was going to let the most powerful group of workers that's ever existed continue to slip their noose

I'm all for unions, as they are perhaps a first step away from the rat race towards progressive change. But if there's going to be a sea change, here are some other dichotomies to consider:

  Individual brands  Right to anonymity
  40 hour workweek  Seasonal work
  Manual labor  Automation
  Rent seeking  Commons
  Service economy  Information economy
  Wealth inequality  Middle class
  Welfare  UBI
  Raising retirement age  Lowering retirement age
  Minimum wage  Living wage
  Intellectual property  Public domain
  Tax reduction  Progressive taxation
  Usury  Access to capital
  Monopoly  Consumer protections
  For-profit insurance  Single-payer healthcare
  Corruption  Transparency
  Mass incarceration  Equal justice under the law
  Externalities like climate change  Stewardship
  Big brother  Reproductive privacy
  War  Diplomacy
  Human trafficking  Human rights
  Liberty  Justice
  Department of Defense  Department of Peace
  Discrimination  Diversity
The idea is to restore a healthy work/life balance for all and rebuild the American Dream. My lived experience has been that the USA has moved in what might be candidly called a regressive direction the last 20 years, and especially since 1980 as the rights of capital have eclipsed the rights of labor. We've embraced the objective for so long out of necessity that we've neglected the subjective as a basis for quality of life.

In other words: in the face of global threats like climate change, young people can no longer assume that business-as-usual will save them. Things must change, for our very survival.

Our ancestors faced similar challenges over a century ago during the progressive era:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era

https://progressives.house.gov/the-progressive-promise

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#340

Post by benreesman »

TC at Big Tech is generally dominated by equity at the outlier end. Everywhere else it doesn’t look like pay is all that different to 5 or even 10 years ago. So either the effects haven’t shown up yet or else this was just an opportune time to stack rank and yank.

If you go on levels.fyi you’ll find that fixed cash (“base”) is the same mid-100s to mid-300s that it was the throughout the last decade for L3/new-grad and L7/L8/principle/staff respectively.

Discretionary cash (“bonus”) is the same 10k-100k, though 100k is rare and always was.

Fixed equity (“initial grant”) is about what it’s been.

People making crazy money were always doing it with discretionary equity (“long-term incentive” or LTI). That’s where you get engineers making 7 figures, and those people are not remotely worried about being laid off, or getting hired through a hiring freeze somewhere else with another great package. It would be pretty nice to be one of those people :P

Too many people got into software without being truly passionate about it because money, Big Tech absorbed a bunch of people who crammed the standardized test but weren’t really producers, and a soft macro situation is a great excuse to clear cut for tech CEOs looking at weak market caps and need to show shareholders and the street that they’re doing something.

I very much doubt that the folks left have lost much bargaining power, but time will tell.

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