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Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

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Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#41
post #8

Freifunk should work fairly easily; take 2-3 2X2 MIMO routers (like 20 bucks each), adjust the firmware for them, get the P2P directional link to either use existing satellite dishes (not sure what the easy orthomode splitter is, here, as you need same-source-spot signals for both horizontal/vertical or left/right polarization), or simple DIY'd axial helix antennas (made on plastic/cardboard tube of appropriate diame…

Seconded, Freifunk is easy to use and pretty resilient, there is also a pretty large community of people with knowledge about it and the hardware requirements are as low as they will go. Beware of some of the possible downsides: the default is for Freifunk nodes to be placed on a map and I'm not sure if this is a requirement or not but it might provide easy targeting information for the Russians. This will have to be…

I'm not very familiar with Freifunk, but if it interfaces like a normal WLAN to the user, then simply not advertising SSID and a basic password will go pretty far. This is obviously not secure against any sort of special operative, but eliminates it as a very easy convenient tool for e.g. a mobik with a cell phone, if this finds its way anywhere near a frontline.

An upside of highly directive, P2P links is that they can provide some protection against EW, simply by nature of having a constrained field of view. Also I'll note most consumer devices (laptops, cell phones) have pretty bad antennas, they're assuming you have a router right nearby. You might get much better coverage if you're also able to provide the user with a simple USB dongle that can attach to an external antenna (e.g. a 10dBi yagi-uda)

If there is need for any input on the antennas side, I'm more than happy to help (EM PhD, design antennas for a living). 2.4GHz is relatively forgiving, you can literally hand make antennas, with some attention to detail. If you have access to shipping (I really don't know the situation) they can be mass produced on PCB.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#42
post #11

The Pi is lousy for that unless you get something with an external antenna connector. Back in the 2000s, we set up inter-building links with Cisco Aironet PCMCIA cards (which did not have the EIRP power limits currently enforced for consumer products) at blistering 11Mbps speeds (well, it was fast for the time) and a few years later we did it again at 54Mbps in the 2.4GHz band with OpenWRT devices like the WRT54g, do…

Has the Raspberry Pi supply problem ended in Europe/Ukraine?

According to https://www.tomshardware.com/news/raspberry-pi-adds-100000-u..., second half of 2023 is when RasPi supply should be restored to pre-pandemic levels.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#43
A few random ideas:

For short range coverage you may want to consider repurposing commercial hardware (routers, access points etc) that supports OpenWRT, those should be easier to find, also used, and way cheaper than specialized hardware. https://openwrt.org/toh/start

Long range communications will require directional antennas, which implies mostly fixed and point to point. Also to achieve line of sight and avoid the fresnel zone obstruction the antennas need to be mounted higher than the highest obstacle in between. Solar power is viable, but battery backup should also be provided. Antenna masts and solar panels would make them visible from distance, and of course although the traffic can be encrypted, they scream all around the air that there is a station operating there; hidden SSID does not make their operation invisible to a spectrum analyzer or any specialized electronic warfare gear - of which the enemy has plenty - that should be taken into consideration.

Anyway, Mikrotik makes some interesting powerful wireless routers like the Metal 52 ac which can operate at over 1W both on 2.4GHz and 5GHz. They're conveniently bullet-shaped and can be supplied by PoE, so that you can connect them just behind the antenna (either directional or omni) to achieve minimum losses. I've bought some good WiFi hardware, cables and antennas at netek.eu (now wifimarket.eu) and batna24.com. Mikrotik is Latvian, Batna and Wifimarket are in Poland, you shouldn't have problems shopping from them. Wifimarket today seems to have a very reduced product line compared to a few years ago when I shopped there. They had really good antennas and cheap really good quality parts to build antennas (dipoles to make patch antennas by adding a reflector etc.) that would come very handy on the field. You may ask them if they still sell them elsewhere. (btw. no affiliation here, just a happy customer)

Think about using fiber optics at least for longer fixed paths: a couple routers with SFP can provide a gigabit connection over several kilometers, and the fiber cable can be easily buried so that it's not easy to notice and doesn't hint the enemy that a transmitter is operating nearby like WiFi would certainly do.

For very slow and long distance communication, namely text messages, LoRa can be an option to which encryption can be added externally. All other considerations about radio transmission remain valid for LoRa too, however. You may find these links interesting:

https://disaster.radio/ https://meshtastic.org/

Also worth of mentioning for different purposes: https://github.com/ExpressLRS/ExpressLRS

Best luck with everything. слава україні!

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#44
post #34

>> point-to-point over anywhere from 5-20km I think 20km point to point is not to be sniffed at if my back of a napkin calculations are correct (would love someone more knowledgeable to correct!) Firstly on LOS - that’s like 15m+ masts at each end of the link (assuming perfect LOS path with no clutter like trees or buildings). Then on free space path loss you’d be looking to overcome around 100db+ of path loss i thin…

Just to clarify for people reading this comment: This: >10dbi / 12 dbd log periodics for 2.4ghz are available off the shelf [I assume this is actually talking about 12dBi and 10dBd which are equivalent] combined with this: >You’d need a 1 watt power amplifier minimum Is very illegal in the US and probably most other places in the world. There is a hard 1W transmit power limit and a 6dBi antenna gain limit. Fixed poin…

They're at war and being constantly bombed; I think being legal or not is the least of their concerns.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#45
I did long range (50km) radio links in the Swedish army 10 years ago. If you want to have the best possible impact I suggest you work with existing telecom companies and ISPs. They have the knowledge and the resources. Nothing you can hack together is going to beat commercial radio links mounted in actual towers and regular phone transmitters.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#46

I think in terms of cheap PtP and PtMP equipment that has fairly long ranges you can’t beat ubiquiti’s product line. They are fairly easy to use for technical people with less networking experience. Try out their cool network planning tools at https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (I have no affiliation with UBNT, I just use their stuff at home)

We started using their stuff "as an experiment" in my civil protection service unit and have had great experiences so far — a breeze to set up and manage, really good performance, and surprisingly affordable even at retail prices. I think it's a bit above your budget constraint except for the CPE side, but maybe you can reach out and set something up given it's for humanitarian purposes or someone on here has a connection.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#47
First off, use Atheros wifi chipsets because their drivers are open source and can be modified.

A cantenna is cheap and can easily bridge around 2-5km if there's not much noise on the spectrum.

If you want to create a meshnet, you should look for OpenWRT compatible hardware in terms of routers and clients.

There's lots of ralink or RTL based USB wifi dongles that also have support for gnuradio so you could also switch frequency bandwidths if they got a tuner on them.

An easy and stealthy low-bandwidth meshnet can easily be created with old DVB-T usb sticks because the RTLSDR allows flexible channel hopping and key rotations, if necessary.

There's also lots of RTLSDR projects that use the LoRa spectrums, and they might work if you are looking for a text based communications network. That's why I mentioned it. There's also the OsmocomBB project which also has support for RTLSDR in case you want to create your own DIY GSM network with IMSI catchers and the like :)

Wi-Fi usually has the problem that the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz frequencies are overloaded with noise, so they are hard to tweak into a long range mesh network.

[1] https://osmocom.org/projects/rtl-sdr/wiki

[2] https://openwrt.org/toh/buyerguide

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#48
post #22

Reach out to various existing infrastructure projects that build and maintain large community-owned P2P WiFi deployments, the two largest ones are Freifunk and Guifi. They would surely be able to and wanting to help you, if you reach out to them. Try https://freifunk.net/en/contact/ and https://matrix.guifi.net/ Most of them are using commodity hardware from Mikrotik, Teltonika and Ubiquiti. Basic setup for a persona…

A curiousity about Ubiquiti firmware. It seems like the AP firmware is based on openwrt

And IIRC a lot can be flashed with openwrt too!

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#49

The state of the art for any non-ionospheric relatively high frequency radio transmission is how high the antenna pair are above their local terrain. Power input, modulation, antenna type, these hardly matter in the face of a hill or a valley. The only thing that matters for 2.4/5 GHz wifi long range is height above surrounding terrain to get line of sight. The highest technology is literally the technology to get th…

Can't antenna gain help a lot as well? Parabolic dishes, etc.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#50
If you are using Linux-based infrastructure, this list contains some recommended Wifi chipsets. https://github.com/morrownr/USB-WiFi/blob/main/home/The_Shor... In particular, ALFA AWUS036ACHM has a combination of long range and low cost (~$39 USD).

Ubiquity UAP AC LR also has long-range access points with up to 183 meters range for ~$109 USD: https://store.ui.com/products/unifi-ac-lr

If you are more ambitious, you can deploy an OpenWRT BATMAN-based mesh network: https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/wifi/mesh/batman

I recommend using something that supports OpenWRT out of the box, such as GL-iNet Mango Mini Router GL-MT300N-V2 (~$20 USD refurbished) https://openwrt.org/toh/gl.inet/gl-mt300n_v2 https://store.gl-inet.com/products/certified-refurbished-pro...

Please only use this information for humanitarian/civilian purposes and not for military objectives. Thank you!

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