Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

news.ycombinator.com

31–40 of 67 posts

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#31
Mikrotik makes wifi radio-links where the radio is integrated into the dish, connected by cat5 for example. The right solution to avoid lossy antenna cables/connectors where power is limited to begin with.

For long distances, you will probably need to "scavenge" bigger dishes (1m diameter) from other sources to be within budget. IIRC, any microwave dish will be useable, including satellite tv dishes, if you use a suitable transceiver-antenna "head" (DIY-able) and align it. In addition, tv dishes on buildings look inconspicuous.

Ideally, the wifi radio should be placed in the focal point of the dish and directed such that the reflected signal points to the horizon. But most TV dishes are not symmetric to allow them to be mounted vertically (and avoid collecting snow) while pointing into the sky.

You might need to read up and figure all this out.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#32

>> point-to-point over anywhere from 5-20km I think 20km point to point is not to be sniffed at if my back of a napkin calculations are correct (would love someone more knowledgeable to correct!) Firstly on LOS - that’s like 15m+ masts at each end of the link (assuming perfect LOS path with no clutter like trees or buildings). Then on free space path loss you’d be looking to overcome around 100db+ of path loss i thin…

The loss is only one facet of the problem - the round trip time becomes a significant problem, requiring large windows and timeouts and general weirdness - time travelling ARPs, for one - as does the ability of consumer equipment to send a signal your AP can receive. The Wi-Fi antenna in a phone or laptop is not generally very powerful.

The limiting factor isn’t the AP, in short.

Now, running LTE microcells - that’s a viable option in a desperate environment, and one that can be done with SDR. Only problem is then getting consumer equipment to authenticate with it. This is possible, either with eSims or with cooperation from local regulatory authorities - but not altogether trivial.

This is borne off the back of experience - I tried to do long range Wi-Fi, but for a usable experience from consumer gear (a phone), 2.5km was about as far as I could get with a 1 watt amp on a dipole.

Got much further with a yagi, but funkiness emerges beyond about 4km on 802.12g. You’d get further on b but your rates will be pants.

I would do LTE for this application. My solution where I am is a mast that receives LTE atop a hill and has four yagis doing 802.11g to receiver nodes, which each comprise a repeater with a yagi pointed at the mast, and a dipole omni to get a solid 500m radius around each repeater. I’ve covered 15ha of tortured terrain with Wi-Fi with this - and come to think of it, the highly directional signals could provide hardness against interference and would greatly mitigate interception issues.

Oh, and I’d you’re doing yagis, you need real ones, not the fake crap you’ll usually find for sale. The real deal is about 70cm long for 2.4ghz and will have tapered vanes to the point. Commercial models come in a plastic can.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#34

>> point-to-point over anywhere from 5-20km I think 20km point to point is not to be sniffed at if my back of a napkin calculations are correct (would love someone more knowledgeable to correct!) Firstly on LOS - that’s like 15m+ masts at each end of the link (assuming perfect LOS path with no clutter like trees or buildings). Then on free space path loss you’d be looking to overcome around 100db+ of path loss i thin…

Just to clarify for people reading this comment:

This:

>10dbi / 12 dbd log periodics for 2.4ghz are available off the shelf [I assume this is actually talking about 12dBi and 10dBd which are equivalent]

combined with this:

>You’d need a 1 watt power amplifier minimum

Is very illegal in the US and probably most other places in the world. There is a hard 1W transmit power limit and a 6dBi antenna gain limit. Fixed point to point links can use higher gain antennas in combination with lower transmit power, but there is no situation in which 1W transmit power + 12dBi gain is legal.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#37
post #35

Wi-Fi is not good solution, because too prone to noise. Better if find something frequency-hopping. BTW I'm in Kiev, first time hear about The Stone Cross Foundation. Could You tell more about it?

Hey, we've ultimately decided to separate the local hotspot (Wi-Fi) and the actual long-distance antenna, as well as a HSM using a dedicated controller. Unfortunately, there's still too many moving pieces and customisability presents a huge challenge. (For one: we need to introduce Diffie–Hellman key derivation, basically to figure out the hopping pattern in the frequency domain.) However, in some cases it may be beneficial to have the Wi-Fi endpoint cover a bigger area, then it's race to the bottom to allow for the receiver hardware. The Stone Cross Foundation is the first Ukrainian charity built completely around zero trust and data analysis, we specialise primarily in humanitarian logistics, warehousing, Diia integration, and superforecasting. Our biggest contribution is a back-office solution for volunteer network management which includes Matrix-CRDT and other Double Ratchet tricks. We have struggled to go retail, and at some point gave up for the time being in favour of concrete priority engineering projects at hand.

Happy to get in touch and tell all! https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=ilya%40hrest.org

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ubiquiti is amazing. really attractive price point, pretty solid kit and performance and really easy to setup and use.

Compared to Mikrotik, Ubiquiti only has better UI and more bells and whistles (pretty graphs and so on), while Mikrotik tends to be cheaper and have the same performance and being able to control/configure every aspect of the hardware. If you're trying to build a cheaper kit, I'll probably go for Mikrotik, in this scenario at least (ie not "WiFi in my house/property" but cross-country mesh network).

Agreed. I've got a bunch of their switch gear and have setup WiFi too with no issues. Got a 4G LHG dish setup in a roof for 2 years too which works great (there's pretty much no cell service there with a phone, the dish reaches max bw of the (admittedly slow) closest tower.
Post reply on HN