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We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

newscientist.com

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Re: We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

#101

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

chizhik-pyzhik wrote: post #3

This article is a good overview of the research about treatment-first vs housing-first approaches. The last paragraph is pretty clear on the real difficulty: >The major obstacles to resolving homelessness remain ideological. It is politically hard to sell the idea that people who take drugs or are disruptive should get free housing – even when the evidence shows that is actually what works.

Because as soon as it happens, I will be first in the line with the question: okay, what should I do to get a free house? Do I need to consume drugs? Would weed do, or it has to be some heavier stuff?

Re: We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

#102

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

Gigachad wrote: post #86
rib3ye wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My observation is that it's more politically contentious to decide where to put these free homes. We have a lot of them in the SF Bay Area (some legit, many not), and they all attract activity that "I don't love" having kids around. I try to fight my internal NIMBYism, but clutter horde and verbal assaults are where I draw the line.

Iirc the Victorian government in Australia decided to buy individual apartments in high rises to put drug addicts in resulting in the buildings becoming so unsafe that the original occupants had to sell and move somewhere else. Turning them in to radical anti public housing activists so they don’t have to move and lose a load of money again. Imagine saving up for ages to buy a nice 3 bedroom apt to move in with your…

Yeah, the problem here is that leaving syringes on the floor, urinating in flower beds and talking shit is insufficient to arrest the person. But is sufficient to drive a lot of tenants away from the house.

Re: We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

#103

Post by the_only_law »

1024core wrote: post #74

The problem is: the "science" is used only as a tool to buttress one's pre-defined notions. Here in San Francisco, near the beginning of COVID, we put our homeless in hotel rooms. One resident per room, no shared bathrooms, etc. Plus, we gave them free food, free alcohol and free drugs (weed, IIRC). The idea was to satisfy all of their needs and not have them going outside. This lasted close to 2 years. This was a fa…

> How many of them cleaned up their acts and became productive members of society?

It doesn’t sound like this was the purpose, it sounds like the purpose was to temporarily keep them off the street. So I’m not exactly shocked that it didn’t give a result it wasn’t designed to give.

Re: We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

#104

Post by pvaldes »

1024core wrote: post #74

The problem is: the "science" is used only as a tool to buttress one's pre-defined notions. Here in San Francisco, near the beginning of COVID, we put our homeless in hotel rooms. One resident per room, no shared bathrooms, etc. Plus, we gave them free food, free alcohol and free drugs (weed, IIRC). The idea was to satisfy all of their needs and not have them going outside. This lasted close to 2 years. This was a fa…

> Weirdly, no scientist considered it worthwhile to study these homeless people in their new housing. Why did they ignore this golden opportunity to study this situation?

Scientists are a scarce resource and job offers need to compete for them. Those able to provide a workplace better than: "typing in your computer using an unmade bed as table in a trashed small hotel room filled with weed smoke and shared with drunk people that could or not have previous mental issues and could be violent or not" got all the talent.

Not really difficult to understand. Science is hard enough yet.

Re: We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

#105

Post by dragonwriter »

walnut_eater wrote: post #100
trynewideas wrote: post #29

Portland, cited in the article, announced it's beginning yet another sweep of homeless encampments yesterday. At the press conference announcing it, the mayor - who's been ordering sweeps his entire tenure - admits they don't and haven't ever helped the people being swept. He's also still pushing his plan to establish city-run outdoor camps for homeless people, and to criminalize rejecting those city-run camps when s…

There's a Star Trek Deep Space Nine episode about government run homelessness camps on the US West Coast in 2024. I see we're working on making this happen.

> There’s a Star Trek Deep Space Nine episode about government run homelessness camps on the US West Coast in 2024.

IIRC the in-episode description, every major city in the United States, not just “on the US West Coast”.

Re: We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

#106

Post by kthejoker2 »

chizhik-pyzhik wrote: post #3

This article is a good overview of the research about treatment-first vs housing-first approaches. The last paragraph is pretty clear on the real difficulty: >The major obstacles to resolving homelessness remain ideological. It is politically hard to sell the idea that people who take drugs or are disruptive should get free housing – even when the evidence shows that is actually what works.

As usual, the logic is backwards, tons of people who take drugs and are disruptive have housing, lack of housing make those things worse.

From the New York Times article on my hometown Houston trying to end homelessness with a housing first policy:

> But housing first involves a different logic: When you’re drowning, it doesn’t help if your rescuer insists you learn to swim before returning you to shore. You can address your issues once you’re on land. Or not. Either way, you join the wider population of people battling demons behind closed doors.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-...

Re: We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

#107

Post by marniewebb »

1024core wrote: post #74

The problem is: the "science" is used only as a tool to buttress one's pre-defined notions. Here in San Francisco, near the beginning of COVID, we put our homeless in hotel rooms. One resident per room, no shared bathrooms, etc. Plus, we gave them free food, free alcohol and free drugs (weed, IIRC). The idea was to satisfy all of their needs and not have them going outside. This lasted close to 2 years. This was a fa…

I think we have to separate caring for our fellow community members from and supporting people in being productive members of society. So many people are with stable homes because they weren’t able - for whatever reason — to be a productive member of society (and there are plenty of arguments about what productive means). We should still care for them.

Re: We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

#108

Post by temp_ljx »

When hundreds of millions of Chinese move to cities looking for jobs, how do they solve the housing problem. Turns out those low-paying jobs mostly offering dormitory to attract workers. There are several article talking about Foxconn worker life conditions, but providing dormitories is better than not.

Re: We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

#109

Post by 1024core »

the_only_law wrote: post #103
1024core wrote: post #74

The problem is: the "science" is used only as a tool to buttress one's pre-defined notions. Here in San Francisco, near the beginning of COVID, we put our homeless in hotel rooms. One resident per room, no shared bathrooms, etc. Plus, we gave them free food, free alcohol and free drugs (weed, IIRC). The idea was to satisfy all of their needs and not have them going outside. This lasted close to 2 years. This was a fa…

> How many of them cleaned up their acts and became productive members of society? It doesn’t sound like this was the purpose, it sounds like the purpose was to temporarily keep them off the street. So I’m not exactly shocked that it didn’t give a result it wasn’t designed to give.

Way to dodge the question. Sure, it wasn't the purpose, but it was the same situation!

If you're going to tell me that providing housing alone is enough for these people, then this is exactly that situation: they were provided free room and board (and *NOT* shared rooms, either). So where are the positive outcomes that "housing first" is supposed to bring?

Re: We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on what works

#110

Post by the_only_law »

1024core wrote: post #109
the_only_law wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many of them cleaned up their acts and became productive members of society? It doesn’t sound like this was the purpose, it sounds like the purpose was to temporarily keep them off the street. So I’m not exactly shocked that it didn’t give a result it wasn’t designed to give.

Way to dodge the question. Sure, it wasn't the purpose, but it was the same situation! If you're going to tell me that providing housing alone is enough for these people, then this is exactly that situation: they were provided free room and board (and *NOT* shared rooms, either). So where are the positive outcomes that "housing first" is supposed to bring?

> If you're going to tell me that providing housing alone is enough for these people

I’m sorry where did I say that. Don’t fucking accuse me of saying something I didn’t say. All I implied is that your expected result was likely not the expected result of the actual program.

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