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An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

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Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#701
post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the question is this. If an AI is doing something illegal like practicing law, how does one sanction an AI? As far as I'm aware, no LLM has reached sentience and started taking on projects of its own volition. So it's easy - you sanction whoever ran the software for an illegal purpose or whoever marketed and sold the software for an illegal purpose.

you cannot sanction the seller of a software, any more than you can sanction the seller of the gun for a murderer.

People have been trying exactly this tho?

https://apnews.com/article/sandy-hook-school-shooting-reming...

https://www.gov.ca.gov/2022/07/12/new-california-law-holds-g...

The second link feeling much closer to direct government action.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The legal system is no joke, and if there weren't regulations about who can practice law, you'd have all kinds of fly-by-night people getting paid to do it while getting their clients thrown in jail That sort of highlights the problem. The legal system is supposed to be about ensuring fair and impartial justice. What the legal system is actually about is providing jobs for people in the legal system. Lawyers make la…

>> The legal system is no joke, and if there weren't regulations about who can practice law, you'd have all kinds of fly-by-night people getting paid to do it while getting their clients thrown in jail > That sort of highlights the problem. The legal system is supposed to be about ensuring fair and impartial justice. What the legal system is actually about is providing jobs for people in the legal system. > Lawyers m…

> And software has become insanely complicated and nearly impossible to navigate without paying the software engineer toll.

Is this somehow bad? The most complicated software, by far, is proprietary software made by large companies, like Google, that are taking the penalty of increased complexity on their end in exchange for (somewhat) happy customers - and guess what? Their developers are paid boatloads of money, so they're getting a decent deal.

Meanwhile, many open-source software systems have managed to keep their complexity somewhat in check (at the expense of functionality).

Software is complex when developers make it complex, and users rarely have to care anyway.

> Life is complicated, and so is the law.

That doesn't follow. Life is complicated, and so is software? No, software is complicated in some cases because of business reasons, and in other cases because of poor design.

Furthermore, there's two massive differences between the two:

First, you're not legally required to use Gmail, but you are legally required to understand and follow the tax code - everyone is, unlike the vast majority of software, where you can pick and choose. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" is factually true - therefore, the law has to be understandable to the vast majority of the population (not just the average - the law has to be understandable to those who failed out of high school and have an IQ below 80).

Second, code is an implementation detail that the vast majority of people don't have to interact with, but people do have to interact with the law directly, which means that a comparison between code and law is apples-to-oranges - the correct comparison is software interface to law, and virtually everyone you meet will tell you that it's easier to use Gmail than to understand the IRS tax code when reading it directly.

The evidence just keeps piling up that the legal system is overly complex.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the bar is so low that inferior clinicians can pass, that's not a win for AI, that's a horrifying problem with the bar.

Inferior doesn't mean failing, it means below average. You can't get rid of below average by definition.

Entire institutions exist specifically to get rid of below average by test-based gatekeeping. You do not want your doctor or lawyer to be "below average" (worse than most people) in their jobs. Inferior test results mean exactly that, failing the test.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#704
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all exist for good reasons Sure, but what's banned is surely not all medical or legal advice. I can browse case law or US code thinking about my case - somehow this does not need a legal license. At the other end of the continuum, talking to a lawyer about my case obviously needs him to be licensed. So now we're debating on which side of the cutoff using DoNotPay's robot must fall. The lawyers have made their mind…

Do you not understand the concept of advice? Browsing the law and coming to your own conclusion isn't "getting advice".

What if the DoNotPay bot does not give any advice, just points out existing cases that it finds appropriate and their interpretation in its search results ?

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#705

But then again, Chat GPT just passed law school exams, albeit at C+ in blind testing. https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/26/tech/chatgpt-passes-exams/ind...

You're not going to get a white shoe law firm partner to come to court to contest your parking ticket unless you are that lawyer yourself, so barely passing is good enough. The only thing to worry about is if the exam grading doesn't allow negative marks for disbarment-level answers, that barely passing score might not be giving us enough information.

>You're not going to get a white shoe law firm partner to come to court to contest your parking ticket unless you are that lawyer yourself, so barely passing is good enough

But what if that white shoe law firm is using chatGPT to respond to your emails and gather information about your case and then billing you? If they use it, does that make it okay?

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#706

> Leah Wilson, the State Bar of California's executive director, told NPR that there has been a recent surge in poor-quality legal representation that has emerged to fill a void in affordable legal advice. > "In 2023, we are seeing well-funded, unregulated providers rushing into the market for low-cost legal representation, raising questions again about whether and how these services should be regulated," Wilson said…

The solution certainly isn't to allow charlatans to exploit those of lesser means.

>exploit

That's a really funny use of the word, considering that the whole purpose of what they're trying to do is the opposite of exploit those of lesser means.

If you can explain to me how what they're trying to do is going to is by definition of the word "exploit" then I will change my mind, otherwise otherwise I will continue to think you have no idea how ironic it is for someone offering an equivalent service or something that will be the equivalent service for a much lower cost as "exploiting someone."

It seems like the legal industry doesn't like competition.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#707
post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is you're ignoring the fact that the bar association has a distinct interest in having the courts run smoothly and making sure lawyers in court are competent. So it is highly in their interest for a courtroom to not become a mockery because of a chatbot. Not everything associations like the bar does is in bad faith or contrary to the public's interest.

This is fundamentally incorrect. The court system's smoothness or lack thereof is the responsibility of the country's judiciary IE the government. The bar associations for each state in contrast: -Licenses attorneys and regulates the profession and practice of law in their -respective states -Enforces Rules of Professional Conduct for attorneys -Disciplines attorneys who violate rules and laws -Administers the Califo…

You obviously have a chip on your shoulder against lawyers because your framing of this is incredibly weird.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution certainly isn't to allow charlatans to exploit those of lesser means.

>exploit That's a really funny use of the word, considering that the whole purpose of what they're trying to do is the opposite of exploit those of lesser means. If you can explain to me how what they're trying to do is going to is by definition of the word "exploit" then I will change my mind, otherwise otherwise I will continue to think you have no idea how ironic it is for someone offering an equivalent service or…

"Equivalent service"? Lol. https://twitter.com/KathrynTewson/status/1617917837879963648
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