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Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

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11–20 of 67 posts

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#11
The Pi is lousy for that unless you get something with an external antenna connector. Back in the 2000s, we set up inter-building links with Cisco Aironet PCMCIA cards (which did not have the EIRP power limits currently enforced for consumer products) at blistering 11Mbps speeds (well, it was fast for the time) and a few years later we did it again at 54Mbps in the 2.4GHz band with OpenWRT devices like the WRT54g, doing 10Km with external directional antennae.

I also built my own 3G range extender with an almost identical off-the-shelf $50 Yagi antenna at a country cottage (2.2 and 2.4GHz are close enough for an antenna to carry both), so I've spent a while pondering those kinds of scenarios.

But addressing your points directly, I would look for OpenWRT-compatible devices with external antenna ports and the ability to do both 2.4 and 5GHz - and most likely try to use 2.4 for long-distance point-to-point links with Yagi antennas.

Hitting the bitrates you mention seems perfectly doable, although I must point out that the antennas are conspicuous (about the length of two Pringles cans). The challenge I found is having router hardware that can pin SSIDs to separate radios, because most of the modern stuff aims for diversity and prioritizes throughput.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#12
post #8

Freifunk should work fairly easily; take 2-3 2X2 MIMO routers (like 20 bucks each), adjust the firmware for them, get the P2P directional link to either use existing satellite dishes (not sure what the easy orthomode splitter is, here, as you need same-source-spot signals for both horizontal/vertical or left/right polarization), or simple DIY'd axial helix antennas (made on plastic/cardboard tube of appropriate diame…

Seconded, Freifunk is easy to use and pretty resilient, there is also a pretty large community of people with knowledge about it and the hardware requirements are as low as they will go.

Beware of some of the possible downsides: the default is for Freifunk nodes to be placed on a map and I'm not sure if this is a requirement or not but it might provide easy targeting information for the Russians. This will have to be taken into account, and if possible to be done without.

Also, Freifunk nodes are open enough that behind-the-lines enemy could use it to phone home without a trace, so likely you'll need some extra FOF kind of authentication mechanism.

People more versed at this than I am will most likely have a whole bunch of other concerns about setting up a system like this.

Finally, long haul is all about antenna tech, I would suggest to enlist the help of as many local HAMs as you can find.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#14
Take a look at AREDN, the Amateur Radio Emergency Digital Network -- https://www.arednmesh.org. They use commercial WiFi gear (see https://www.arednmesh.org/content/supported-platform-matrix) with custom firmware, running on the adjacent ham radio bands (which have less noise on them, allowing for greater distance, although I wouldn't be surprised if the WiFi bands and radio bands have different allocations in Europe.) Surprisingly (to me, anyway) they say that 'N' speed WiFi works better at long ranges than newer protocols.

Honestly, as you are in Europe, you should look into the European Hamnet. See https://hamnet.eu/site/community.html and https://www.tapr.org/pdf/DCC2014-TheEuropeanHAMNET-DG8NGN.pd.... They aren't using WiFi, but the goal is the same.

Both of these require licensed amateur radio operators to use normally. (Maybe wartime is a different matter). I do believe I heard that Russia took radio transceivers away from operators in the Ukraine, but don't know much about it.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#15
The state of the art for any non-ionospheric relatively high frequency radio transmission is how high the antenna pair are above their local terrain. Power input, modulation, antenna type, these hardly matter in the face of a hill or a valley.

The only thing that matters for 2.4/5 GHz wifi long range is height above surrounding terrain to get line of sight. The highest technology is literally the technology to get the antennas highest; ie poles, towers, tops of tall buildings, actively lifted (and powered) drone platforms for antennas, sides of mountains, etc.

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#16
I can't talk to long-range Wi-Fi or necessarily the state of the art, but perhaps a couple of these resources may be helpful:

The Internet Society have some resources on community networks here: https://www.internetsociety.org/action-plan/2022/community-n...

And then there's the Things Network, which operates over the LoRaWAN (Long Range Wide Area Network) protocol: https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/

Lastly (and potentially not super relevant), there was a talk at LibrePlanet 2021 about efforts to set up community networks in Turkey (although more from the perspective of ensuring user freedom): https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/freeing-networ...

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#17

Reach out to various existing infrastructure projects that build and maintain large community-owned P2P WiFi deployments, the two largest ones are Freifunk and Guifi. They would surely be able to and wanting to help you, if you reach out to them. Try https://freifunk.net/en/contact/ and https://matrix.guifi.net/ Most of them are using commodity hardware from Mikrotik, Teltonika and Ubiquiti. Basic setup for a persona…

This is the right answer. The Freifunk people have a lot of experience and knowledge.

Anecdote: A while back I was moving houses ~1km with trees obstructing line-of-sight and without connectivity at the new house for the first couple of months. I had to move but could keep the old place connected. I jerry-rigged Ubiqity PtPs that I had inherited from a friend at each end. Packets started dropping on rainy days but it was working surprisingly well.

Not necessarily a fan of Ubiquity and their closed ecosystem per se, and it might not be the best pick for a project like OPs if there are options.

(Throwaway because these hotspots were brought from abroad..)

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#18
I just found out about a mesh wisp in northern California. I don't know anything about their tech stack but they claim to be all open source and might be something worth digging into.

https://furtherreach.net

http://www.denovogroup.org

http://www.airjaldi.org

https://www.linkedin.com/in/yahel

https://github.com/yahel

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#19
post #14

Take a look at AREDN, the Amateur Radio Emergency Digital Network -- https://www.arednmesh.org . They use commercial WiFi gear (see https://www.arednmesh.org/content/supported-platform-matrix ) with custom firmware, running on the adjacent ham radio bands (which have less noise on them, allowing for greater distance, although I wouldn't be surprised if the WiFi bands and radio bands have different allocations in Euro…

My time to shine- this is for anyone concerned about ham operation in Ukraine

https://eindhoven.space/2022/10/08/ham-radio-usage-in-ukrain...

Re: Ask HN: What's with the DIY state of the art long-range Wi-Fi?

#20
post #4

Here is a write-up of the NYC mesh network https://docs.nycmesh.net/intro/

NYC Mesh is a great initiative, and probably the one with the most "modern" setup as it's the newest one. But take into consideration that it might also not be as reliable or work at the same scale as Freifunk or Guifi. Number of online nodes per network as of today: - NYC Mesh: 1281 ( https://www.nycmesh.net/map ) - Freifunk: 42,524 ( https://www.freifunk-karte.de/ ) - Guifi: 37,721 ( https://guifi.net/en/node/3671/…

Not sure if these numbers are the best to go by. Freifunk surely has the most setups. I might be completely wrong on this but I think most Freifunk installations are isolated, i.e. single-node with e.g. the local DSL as upstream. I wonder which of these have nodes with no cable-bound upstream or at least actually used interconnects with other nodes.
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