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Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

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Re: Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

#261
post #149
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It probably amounted to a real crime. I'm not a lawyer, I have no idea how criminal law in the USA works, but why would this be a crime? He didn't fake a Department of Defence ID, he created an ID for a fictional Department of Defiance, it may look similar, it may appear as a "real" ID because it's not just a piece of paper, but it's about as real an ID as a gym membership card.

But you wouldn't board an international flight with your gym membership card.

In 2023? No. In 198X? You didn’t even need an ID.

Re: Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

#262
post #244
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t help but shake my head at most of these comments. There was a time when we celebrated anecdotes like this here on Hacker News. I’ve seen this story circulated many times but this is the first time I’ve seen this sort of reaction. These aren’t rose colored glasses, anyone can look up threads of old in which we cheered such defiance toward authority. People are frothing to frame this story with 2023 glasses and…

Nothing says "challenging the status quo" like a multi-millionaire messing with normal people who are just trying to do their job... I'm sure I when I first read this story, I thought it was hilarious. But since then, I've gained at least little bit of empathy. Think of this story from the perspective of the other people. Woz is being a total piece of shit, wasting their time being intentionally as suspicious as poss…

The reason why it used to be celebrated on HN, and why GP laments the change is that Woz hacked security. This is a great example of social engineering and it's in the vein of the old 80's hacker mentality. Besides for the fun story, it is a security breach that all these security personnel failed to pick up on.

I agree with the GP that this kind of thing should be celebrated on HN and we should encourage the next generation to continue hacking.

Re: Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When an entire population is far more homogeneous than most modern Western states, the heightened social trust and cohesion permits this kind of harmless fun (among many other benefits). It's one of those sacrifices made to accommodate diversity which is almost impossible to quantify and existentially unsettling to even try.

Maybe this struck a nerve because I'm an American born-and-raised PoC, but frankly I believe this is a bad opinion that is often pushed by racists (even if the idea itself isn't necessarily inherently racist). Heightened social trust in people of one's own ethnicity isn't a fact of life, it's just racism. It's what causes PoC to be profiled by law enforcement, on average have worse outcomes for the same crimes in the…

How many of those colorblind people (of the ones who are married), and married outside their race and/or religion?

Re: Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

#264
post #146
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As little as a birth certificate? You can still cross EU borders with just a driving licence, or government issued ID where they have them. (In practice the vast majority using planes and boats at least probably do take a passport, I always did from the UK, but in theory you don't need one, so if you weren't planning to go elsewhere you wouldn't even need to get a passport.)

> You can still cross EU borders with just a driving licence, or government issued ID where they have them. For anybody unfamiliar with Europe, I just want to add that there aren't any checkpoints or border crossings, you just drive through or walk over. Half the time you won't even notice you're doing it. You're just supposed to have your ID on your person when you do. Ireland (and previously the UK) is the only maj…

>For anybody unfamiliar with Europe, I just want to add that there aren't any checkpoints or border crossings, you just drive through or walk over. Half the time you won't even notice you're doing it. You're just supposed to have your ID on your person when you do.

The above is only true in the Schengen zone. As soon as you cross the border to a non-Schengen country or you arrive from a non-Schengen country you will go through normal border control (with some exceptions). This includes multiple EU countries beside Ireland like Romania, Bulgaria or Cyprus. And many non-EU countries like Bosnia, Serbia, Monaco, Kosovo, Andorra, Ukraine, Turkey, Russia, etc.

Re: Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But was it materially false? im not sure his fake occupation was at all relevant, and since the document identified Woz, I suspect it was materially true.

Stating obvious, ultimately all individuals are responsible for their respective interpretations of the law and even judges error in their interpretations. That said, in my opinion, if an individual intentionally provides false statements or produces false documents to a federal investigator, that doing so is always a crime regardless of if it’s done to evade an investigation, material to a given investigation, etc —…

But "document" contained his true name and picture

Re: Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

#266
post #10

Was Wozniak already “the Woz” of Apple fame when this story took place? In which case I assume he could afford the best lawyers on the planet if necessary, plus the President calling to get him out of trouble. An ordinary civilian might fall down that hole never to come out again. Just showing a fake ID to a fed could be met with serious retribution.

Woz's old friend John Draper knew how to call President Richard Nixon get out of trouble when he ran out of toilet paper, and later Woz paid for Draper's attorney fees when he got busted for being involved with duplicating BART cards:

https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/139493

Legends

One oft-repeated story featuring Captain Crunch goes as follows: Draper picked up a public phone, then proceeded to “phreak” his call around the world. At no charge, he routed a call through different phone switches in countries such as Japan, Russia and England. Once he had set the call to go through dozens of countries, he dialed the number of the public phone next to him. A few minutes later, the phone next to him rang. Draper spoke into the first phone, and, after quite a few seconds, he heard his own voice very faintly on the other phone. He sometimes repeated this stunt at parties. Draper also claimed that he and a friend once placed a direct call to the White House during the Nixon administration, and after giving the operator President Nixon's secret code name of "Olympus", and asking to speak to the president about a national emergency, they were connected with someone who sounded like Richard Nixon; Draper’s friend told the man about a toilet paper shortage in Los Angeles, at which point the person on the other end of the line angrily asked them how they'd managed to get connected to him.[8] Draper was also a member of the Homebrew Computer Club.[2]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32723420

DonHopkins 4 months ago | parent | context | favorite | on: How MetroCard works (2005) [pdf]

Then there was the time the infamous phone phreak John "Cap'n Crunch" Draper got busted for forging BART Cards... Steve Wozniak and his son also got mistakenly busted and thrown in a holding cell for 4 hours because he had a (real) BART card that didn't work, so he got pissed off and ended up paying for Draper's attorney fees, and Draper copped to a misdemeanor of altering MUNI tickets, and went on probation for a year, but did not lose his job at Autodesk.

https://techmonitor.ai/technology/just_tacky

>TECHNOLOGY. March 1, 1987. JUST TACKY! By CBR Staff Writer.

>Aw c’mon John, forging the electronic characteristics of BART tickets is just tacky! John Draper, who inter alia wrote the Easy Writer word processing package, has been caught with $2,500 of forged access tickets to the San Francisco Bay-Area Rapid Transit subway system, and fellah, BART, which has never fully recovered from the teething troubles in the early days when trains used to whistle through stations at 60mph with the doors wide open, can’t afford it; Draper’s real claim to fame is that he discovered in the 1960s that a toy whistle given away in packets of a glutinous and bilious-coloured sugared corn puff cereal called Cap’n Crunch was pitched just right to mimic the tones AT&T used to set up long-distance calls, so that packs of the sickly Cap’n sold out as kids rushed to claim the whistles that enabled them to call auntie in Montana or Mary in Maine; that was ingenious if wicked, but forging BART tickets – tacky, John, tacky.

https://digibarn.com/collections/audio/digibarn-radio/06-05-...

>DigiBarn Radio: John Draper @ Autodesk (1985)

>Listen to John Draper talking about his Autodesk period, the BART card fiasco and more! (8MB MP3, recorded May 2006)

https://www.digibarn.com/collections/audio/digibarn-radio/06...

>John Draper at the Digibarn's Homebrew@30 event

>Thanks Tom Barbalet for recording this rare interview with John Draper (aka "Captain Crunch" or "Crunchman" these days) about his life at Autodesk, and the BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) cards fiasco. Also included here are other life and times of "Crunch".

https://digibarn.com/collections/audio/digibarn-radio/06-05-...

Partial transcript (listen to the whole thing for the full story about the BART card fiasco -- I'm just transcribing the part about Woz getting arrested here):

[...]

John Draper: So Woz game me a Mac I could use, and Woz also go me a ... Cause Woz got hassled by the BART cops too.

Here's what happened, here's what happened at that point.

Woz went to go see the Oakland A's game. And what he wanted to do, he had his son with him. So his son I think at the time was about 9 years old. And he wanted to take his son to the Oakland A's game.

And his son says "Hey, daddy, can I ride BART?" Sure, why not? So he goes to Hayward BART, er, he goes to Hay- not Hayward, yeah, he goes to Hayward BART, yeah, parks the car, and rides BART to the Oakland Coliseum. Ok.

So what happened was, his son's BART card didn't work. He put it in to the turnstile, and it got rejected coming back. And Woz goes over to the BART attendant and says "Well my card doesn't work", he says "look, it comes back, it came back and said rejected or something."

And the guy, the BART attendant says "Wait right here." He gets on the phone, calls the BART cop. BART cop takes Woz and his son down to the Lake Merit Station, ok. At which time they grilled Woz about what he'd, that he'd, and they were claiming, accusing him of tampering with the cards, and they threw Woz and his son in a holding cell for like six hours.

Tom Barbalet: So let me get this straight.

John Draper: Until they could get an expert to come in and take a look at that card, to make sure that the card had not been tampered.

Tom Barbalet: And the card was a regular card that they just bought.

John Draper: Yeah, just a regular card that they just bought.

Tom Barbalet: So they knew your connection with him?

John Draper: No they did not know my connection with him.

Tom Barbalet: So how did, why was he...

John Draper: His card didn't work. They suspected that he had tampered with the card.

Tom Barbalet: But surely that would have happened to, just in a sample size, a hundred, maybe two hundred people in the Bay Area.

John Draper: I don't know the details, all I know is they arrested him and his son, and they held them up in a, put him in a holding cell for four hours, until they can wake up a, get the BART engineer to get out and examine the card, and once they figured out it was their fault, they let him go.

Tom Barbalet: Right.

John Draper: So when Woz found about the BART fiasco that I did, thing, that I got roped into, Woz says, "I got this attorney, I'll pay for, I'll pay for your legal attorney fees. Go see this guy. So I went and say this guy, this attorney. So he was handling my case in the BART thing.

[...]

Re: Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving a false ID to law enfordement? That is a crime. Giving a forged ID to the secret service, the people in charge of detecting counterfeiting? That's just idiocy. Misspelling department of defense doesnt make the ID ok any more than printing a tiny lol in the corner of your fake dollar bills. (Also, falsely claiming a relationship with the military is downright dishonerable.)

What do you mean by "dishonerable" here? Is this an instance of how Americans love the military so much that it's difficult to understand for people from other countries (where being a military isn't different from being a shop owner, or carpenter or doctor or whatever)?

No matter what country you’re in, the military is in a position of authority (except maybe Costa Rica). Generally people consider a lie to be worse if it’s a lie you can use to get power.

Re: Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention not looking like a minority was a fairly strong shield back then and even is today.

no kidding, you could bluff your way out of a murder charge or even convince the police that your naked bleeding victim screaming to get away from you was better off in your care. (see jeffery dhamer) edit: 2 downvotes? seriously? here's a source https://toofab.com/2020/06/19/white-cops-handed-a-dying-14-y...

That was arguably homophobia, not racial preference.

Re: Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

#269
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving a false ID to law enfordement? That is a crime. Giving a forged ID to the secret service, the people in charge of detecting counterfeiting? That's just idiocy. Misspelling department of defense doesnt make the ID ok any more than printing a tiny lol in the corner of your fake dollar bills. (Also, falsely claiming a relationship with the military is downright dishonerable.)

> false ID Showing a counterfeit driver’s license, passport etc. is obviously a crime. What he did was equivalent to showing your company issued ID. Would that be a crime?

It had a logo meant to fool a casual observer into reading "department of defense". Inserting a misprint doesn't make something ok if they decide you were intending to create a false impression in a hurried cop.

Re: Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills

#270
post #169
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it pretty irresponsible to commit a felony while you have a daughter and wife to take care of? I find his nonchalant delivery quite jarring. I don't understand what's going through his head here.

I can’t help but shake my head at most of these comments. There was a time when we celebrated anecdotes like this here on Hacker News. I’ve seen this story circulated many times but this is the first time I’ve seen this sort of reaction. These aren’t rose colored glasses, anyone can look up threads of old in which we cheered such defiance toward authority. People are frothing to frame this story with 2023 glasses and…

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