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Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

abc.net.au

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Re: Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

#41
post #35
post #26

I am a bit surprised they haven't found it a >1mCi Cs137 source should be quite easy to find, it can be detected with a medium sized detector from >10m distance. A car driving along the road with a bunch of detectors in the trunk or a helicopter with a stack of NaI bars mounted on the bottom should see the radiation emitted by the source. I am working at a National Lab in the US and this is the main focus of my resea…

> and this is the main focus of my research. Nice, so, just speculating with what is in the public domain here; * what kind of counts would you expect from a 19-becquerel caesium 137 ceramic source in a 50 litre NaI spectrometer ~ 40 metres away in a 1 second window ? I mean the spectrum is going to look like [1], of course, but I'm imagining a crop duster [2] draping at 70 metres / second for along the centre line o…

19 Becquerel is quite weak. My back of the envelop calculations of the source mentioned in this article makes me guess it is about 1 milli Curie = 0.001 Curie = 37 Million Becquerel.

For simplicity lets assume 50 Liter is a 1 meter x 1 meter x 5 centimeter thick panel. 5 centimeter is usually sufficient to give you a good change to measure gamma rays at most energies and you want to have a large surface area exposed to the source, so this seems a quite optimal configuration for 50 Liter of NaI.

A source emits gamma rays in all directions uniformly, so to calculate the fraction of gamma rays that end up in our detector we calculate in "solid angle space".

The surface area of such the detector is 1 meter^2. The solid angle coverage can be approximated by surface area / distance^2 [1], so at 40 meter that would be about 0.000625. The full solid sphere is 4PI ~ 12.5, which is the surface area of a ball with 1 meter radius.

The fraction of the full solid angle that is covered by the detector is 0.000625 / 12.5 = 0.00005.

You have 19 Becequerel = 19 Gamma rays per seconds leaving the source so 0.00005 * 19 Bequerel * 60 seconds = 0.057 gamma rays per minute reaching the detector. You won't see this over the background.

Putting 37 Million Becquerel into this equation, we will get roughly 111,000 counts / minute in the detector. Remembering correctly (and this is only a rough guess) you would expect about 700,000 gamma rays per minute from background (what we call naturally occurring radioactive materials or NORM) in that much detector volume. So that is about a 1:7 signal to background ratio. You should have a very good chance of seeing that.

I neglected here that not all gamma rays that reach the detector actually will leave a signal in the detector. But at 662 keV, the energy most of the gamma rays in Cs137 are emitted at, about half of them do so in a 3 cm thick detector. At 5 cm I would estimate about 75% or more doing so.

Hope that gives you an idea how you can estimate these types of questions.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_angle

Edit: Forgot to mention the radon. Usually you do not measure much radon unless it rains. It is mostly a dessert there so I don't think that should be an issue

Re: Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

#42
post #26

I am a bit surprised they haven't found it a >1mCi Cs137 source should be quite easy to find, it can be detected with a medium sized detector from >10m distance. A car driving along the road with a bunch of detectors in the trunk or a helicopter with a stack of NaI bars mounted on the bottom should see the radiation emitted by the source. I am working at a National Lab in the US and this is the main focus of my resea…

If they just wait until night, they can use thermal vision goggles and find it via helicopter.

A radioactive source that weak won't emit much heat. You can touch it and it will not be hotter than a piece of metal. You would need a source quite a bit stronger (at least thousand times stronger) to actually feel/see the heat from it.

Re: Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

#43
post #41
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and this is the main focus of my research. Nice, so, just speculating with what is in the public domain here; * what kind of counts would you expect from a 19-becquerel caesium 137 ceramic source in a 50 litre NaI spectrometer ~ 40 metres away in a 1 second window ? I mean the spectrum is going to look like [1], of course, but I'm imagining a crop duster [2] draping at 70 metres / second for along the centre line o…

19 Becquerel is quite weak. My back of the envelop calculations of the source mentioned in this article makes me guess it is about 1 milli Curie = 0.001 Curie = 37 Million Becquerel. For simplicity lets assume 50 Liter is a 1 meter x 1 meter x 5 centimeter thick panel. 5 centimeter is usually sufficient to give you a good change to measure gamma rays at most energies and you want to have a large surface area exposed…

> 19 Becquerel is quite weak.

Isn't it just?

I'm glad you picked that up as 1.9 MBq through up to 750 MBq is more of the range I would have expected for a mining instrumentation source [1].

I'm guessing both the The Guardian [2] and AAP [3] relied on the same reporter who missed fact checking and an M (and possibly a decimal place) when interviewing the W.Australian Health minister (who, of course, may have bumbled that himself).

The W.Australian official press release avoided details [4].

Take note when going forward in your career as there'll likely be some moment of unexpected public relations in the future.

Any thoughts on the "full quote" ?

    Chief Health Officer Andrew Robertson said the small silver cylinder was a 19-becquerel caesium 137 ceramic source commonly used in radiation gauges.

    “That may not mean a lot to people but probably more concerning is that it does emit a reasonable amount of radiation,” he said.

    Dr Robertson said the unit emits about two millisieverts of radiation per hour, which is the equivalent of having 10 x-rays in an hour.

    “Two millisieverts is also the amount of natural radiation we would receive in a year just by walking around,” he said.

    “This is a source we have to be very careful of … It is quite a large radiation dose.”
It's one thing to drop an M in MBq, another to get x-ray equivilants incorrect, so does this sound about ballpark to you?

I confess to a distaste for Sieverts as a per kilo absorbed dose (or is that Grays) as its kind of subjective to target rather than source properties (as the source may be partially shielded by lead, water, etc.)

Moving on, 700 k counts / minute background (or 12 k counts/sec for those of us working in one second over lapped accumulation windows) sounds ballpark.

The interesting twist on the source, though, is it might be shaped in the sense of having a wrapper of lead (say) with an aperture of preference to direct the radiation preferentially.

> I neglected here that not all gamma rays that reach the detector actually will leave a signal in the detector.

For at least two reasons, 'eh?

* Not all gammas passing through the crystal will cause a flash (you covered by implication), AND

* Not all flashes will be counted (oft neglected) as the scintillation counters get saturated by single events and need to recover, they also fluff damn near simultaneous multiple events as singles (all this dependant on scintillation detection equipment).

> Hope that gives you an idea how you can estimate these types of questions.

I was very interested to hear your reasoning, I appreciate it and I hope your comment gets a few eyeballs, although HN moving on apace as it does, who knows?

> Forgot to mention the radon. Usually you do not measure much radon unless it rains. It is mostly a dessert there so I don't think that should be an issue

Hmm. You might want to look into this further I suspect.

My poor understanding is that rainstorm fronts drop the barometric pressure which draws radon gas from the cracks and crevasses in which the gas has already been expressed from the rock sources.

So, yes, there is an increase in radon gas where radon gas is normally expressed due to pressure drops.

However, in a hypothetical environment with no pressure changes .. radon continues to be expressed if it is being created.

I've found, in my humble experience, that even on clear days rain free days in Western Australia radon is thick on valley floors in those areas that have it in the still of the mornings, and gone later in the afternoon as the winds increase and clear the heavy ground hugging gases.

I would suggest that radon is a function more of geology and topography .. modified in variance by air pressure and wind conditions.

In any case, thank you for your response, I look forward to any further thoughts you may have, and, in closing, you may enjoy this entertaining A0 wall map [5] .. or perhaps the larger raw datasets (also available) [6]

[1] https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jan/28/missi...

[3] https://www.aap.com.au/news/search-for-radioactive-capsule-i...

[4] https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/Media-releases/2023/January/Sea...

[5] https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/api/records/a05f7892-f...

[6] https://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/disciplines/geophysi...

Re: Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

#44
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m assuming they’re probably not Probably work on reading up on detection methods. ( See upstream attached overview on basics ) There's a source object here, the size of a bolt, it emits a certain amount of detectable energy (why? worth checking) in All directions - at any distance the energy that reaches that far is spread across the surface of a sphere .. the surface area of that increases R-squared and so the e…

Probably work on reading up on detection methods.(See upstream attached overview on basics) Why don't you read up on it? No need to fake arrogance. I'm the one suggesting new ideas here...not a geiger-counter on a satellite: atmosphere opaque to low-energy gamma/x-rays; but transparent to near-visible photons, right? So is it really impossible secret projects came up with a way to detect x-ray/gamma via photon emissi…

> Why don't you read up on it?

I have, more or less off and on semi continuously since the 1980s. FWiW I've read and edited multiple versions of guidelines to terrestrial radiometrics from several countries and the international agencies (such as the one I linked above).

> No need to fake arrogance.

Just a bald statement of rather dull facts I'm afraid.

> Does not sound impossible to me. I get if you're unaware of it or sounds impossible to you, yeah? OK? No worries. This may be related:

Just to be clear .. are you suggesting that a coin sized Cs-137 mining instrumentation source with 667 kev gamma peak might be causing observable cherenkov radiation?

And that no one has noticed or thought to look since 1900 or the post WWII Cold War boom in domain study?

That's an interesting notion.

Re: Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

#45
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably work on reading up on detection methods.(See upstream attached overview on basics) Why don't you read up on it? No need to fake arrogance. I'm the one suggesting new ideas here...not a geiger-counter on a satellite: atmosphere opaque to low-energy gamma/x-rays; but transparent to near-visible photons, right? So is it really impossible secret projects came up with a way to detect x-ray/gamma via photon emissi…

> Why don't you read up on it? I have, more or less off and on semi continuously since the 1980s. FWiW I've read and edited multiple versions of guidelines to terrestrial radiometrics from several countries and the international agencies (such as the one I linked above). > No need to fake arrogance. Just a bald statement of rather dull facts I'm afraid. > Does not sound impossible to me. I get if you're unaware of it…

Well doesn’t mean you might not be missing something, or not relating it. Anyway, the blue light is just something related. You know what I’m suggesting, it’s very clear. Why do you have to pretend a weaker version than deal with that?

Anyway, you’ve clearly got skin in the game in this argument, Aussie. I wonder what your role is: an interested observer or an involved party?

Re: Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

#46
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't you read up on it? I have, more or less off and on semi continuously since the 1980s. FWiW I've read and edited multiple versions of guidelines to terrestrial radiometrics from several countries and the international agencies (such as the one I linked above). > No need to fake arrogance. Just a bald statement of rather dull facts I'm afraid. > Does not sound impossible to me. I get if you're unaware of it…

Well doesn’t mean you might not be missing something, or not relating it. Anyway, the blue light is just something related. You know what I’m suggesting, it’s very clear. Why do you have to pretend a weaker version than deal with that? Anyway, you’ve clearly got skin in the game in this argument, Aussie. I wonder what your role is: an interested observer or an involved party?

Why are you wondering?

It should be clear by now that I've measured and mapped radiation events of several kinds for 40 odd years.

It's clear that you're suggesting there might be some novel as yet unknown way to detect and location pinpoint a coin sized industrial Cs-137 source used in a mining radiation gauge from the distance of a low orbit (?) satellite.

I'm open to hearing how exactly this might be achieved, I'm sure the other person in this parallel discussion would also have an interest, as they stated they're working at a US national lab in precisely this area.

If you turn to that discussion they've addressed the measured and known way in which the gamma radiation falls off with distance .. although they didn't address how that also falls off with air column mass (air pressure, tempreture, water vapor level (humidity)) etc. and determined this is possible to detect in a one second window from 40 metre distance.

It also rather rules out using direct gamma detection of such a weak source from 25km through the full mass of the atmosphere so, again, it'd be nice to have a concrete indication from you of what it might useful to look for.

Concrete, mind, and not more of this handwavy Sir Kenelm Digby Powder of Sympathy [1] remote sensing magic.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_of_sympathy

Re: Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

#47
post #41
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and this is the main focus of my research. Nice, so, just speculating with what is in the public domain here; * what kind of counts would you expect from a 19-becquerel caesium 137 ceramic source in a 50 litre NaI spectrometer ~ 40 metres away in a 1 second window ? I mean the spectrum is going to look like [1], of course, but I'm imagining a crop duster [2] draping at 70 metres / second for along the centre line o…

19 Becquerel is quite weak. My back of the envelop calculations of the source mentioned in this article makes me guess it is about 1 milli Curie = 0.001 Curie = 37 Million Becquerel. For simplicity lets assume 50 Liter is a 1 meter x 1 meter x 5 centimeter thick panel. 5 centimeter is usually sufficient to give you a good change to measure gamma rays at most energies and you want to have a large surface area exposed…

Why are sources uniform and not shaped for waveguides?

Re: Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

#48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well doesn’t mean you might not be missing something, or not relating it. Anyway, the blue light is just something related. You know what I’m suggesting, it’s very clear. Why do you have to pretend a weaker version than deal with that? Anyway, you’ve clearly got skin in the game in this argument, Aussie. I wonder what your role is: an interested observer or an involved party?

Why are you wondering? It should be clear by now that I've measured and mapped radiation events of several kinds for 40 odd years. It's clear that you're suggesting there might be some novel as yet unknown way to detect and location pinpoint a coin sized industrial Cs-137 source used in a mining radiation gauge from the distance of a low orbit (?) satellite. I'm open to hearing how exactly this might be achieved, I'm…

Hand wavy huh? Isn't it always those who know the least who have to trump up their pittance with arrogant dismissals of other people's ideas? I think so. Anyway, why don't you try having some power of sympathy for this idea (I posted above): So is it really impossible secret projects came up with a way to detect x-ray/gamma via photon emission from collision with atmospheric particles? Sparsity/AI/DSP to work the data... truly impossible? Does not sound impossible to me. I get if you're unaware of it or sounds impossible to you, yeah? OK? No worries.

So I'm going now. I do not want to do this with you all day. So I hope your day gets better from here, bye! :)

Re: Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

#49
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

19 Becquerel is quite weak. My back of the envelop calculations of the source mentioned in this article makes me guess it is about 1 milli Curie = 0.001 Curie = 37 Million Becquerel. For simplicity lets assume 50 Liter is a 1 meter x 1 meter x 5 centimeter thick panel. 5 centimeter is usually sufficient to give you a good change to measure gamma rays at most energies and you want to have a large surface area exposed…

Why are sources uniform and not shaped for waveguides?

If cosama doesn't make it back, the wording here is generally taken that "source" is the source material that radiates alpha, beta, gamma radiation and is in some sense 'pure'.

As such it radiates equally in all directions.

Of course a manufacted Source(TM) for industry might actually be a slug of doped Cs-137 surrounded by a lead casing with a window to direct emissions.

This still leaves us talking about the actual source of the radiation which emits equally in all directions .. but being blocked in some directions by either a casing or perhaps the earth below, a pool of water, etc.

Re: Urgent public health warning issued over lost radioactive capsule

#50
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are sources uniform and not shaped for waveguides?

If cosama doesn't make it back, the wording here is generally taken that "source" is the source material that radiates alpha, beta, gamma radiation and is in some sense 'pure'. As such it radiates equally in all directions. Of course a manufacted Source(TM) for industry might actually be a slug of doped Cs-137 surrounded by a lead casing with a window to direct emissions. This still leaves us talking about the actual…

Thanks for the answer. You are absolutely correct, although once you start taking all these effects into account it is often easier to run simulations. For a back-of-the-envelop calculation assuming uniformity is quite common.
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