Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group • Hacker News Board

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#71

Post by whatshisface » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 8:03 AM UTC

drblastoff wrote: post #64

nyrulez wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to draw conclusions because first graph is not the delta in deaths, just total deaths. and southern states have always had a high cardiovascular mortality. I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines? Whenever this discussion comes up, its either complete blame or zero blame. How about investigate it like any other factor with the help of proper data? A…

You should report this to VAERS if you’re in the US and it hasn’t been reported already. Indicate the batch number, which should be written on your vaccine card. I’ve had four Pfizer shots. For three shots, the side effects were mild. But after one, I had chest pains for about a week. It turns out that shot was from a batch with many cases of serious illness and several deaths reported on VAERS. The other batches had…

I wish people could talk about real problems like this and not made-up problems like you'd seen being passed around on social media.

The politicization (which has lead to a complete jam-up in the public discourse - on one side you have heavy, active censorship and on the other you have totally fabricated hysterical theories with no grounding in reality) and close integration between the manufacturers and the regulators (which is there in every industry sadly) has created an ideal environment for mundane errors in manufacturing through point-of-care administration to creep in undetected, or at least unremarked on.

To offer one example, if the person giving you the shot hits a blood vessel, the risk of a clot goes up a lot. Like many injections, it's supposed to go in to muscle tissue. How many overworked nurses are hitting deep blood vessels by accident? Even basic questions about this are not being asked in the public square, as much if not more due to the crowding out by the "they're modifying our DNA" stuff than due to tech companies indiscriminately deranking keywords that a brand wouldn't want to be associated with.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#72

Post by petodo » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 8:03 AM UTC

What we really need to do is to compare highly vaxxed nations with least vaxxed nations (Africa will be helpful, China without mRNA as well) and see their heart attacks trends, then you can draw conclusion whether this rise is most likely caused by vax, COVID or other factors.

Obviously with population getting more obese by year they were growing already before vax/COVID, but the question is whether this trend accelerated since COVID and/or COVID vaccine introduction.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#73

Post by philjohn » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 8:06 AM UTC

thinking4real wrote: post #40

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #17

For those who are desperate to draw a link between vaccines and heart attacks, this article essentially says the opposite of that. While the paper itself doesn't differentiate between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, it does contain a graph showing a state-by-state breakdown of acute myocardial infarction (AMI)-associated deaths: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/c0aed082-9f81-4a88... Dark purple is a…

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Sudden death due to cardiac events in young, otherwise healthy people, is not a new phenomenon. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969030/

Anecdata time: the nurse at the school I attended in the 90's had a son who was a marathon runner, keel over and die on a light training run from a undiagnosed heart defect 30 years ago.

If you're referring to Damar Hamlin, if you look at the event he took a super hard blow to his chest prior to collapsing, something which can cause a cardiac arrest.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#74

Post by rgbrenner » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 8:06 AM UTC

thinking4real wrote: post #40

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #17

For those who are desperate to draw a link between vaccines and heart attacks, this article essentially says the opposite of that. While the paper itself doesn't differentiate between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, it does contain a graph showing a state-by-state breakdown of acute myocardial infarction (AMI)-associated deaths: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/c0aed082-9f81-4a88... Dark purple is a…

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So you watched an NFL player get hit in his chest by a 6'4" 220lb athlete that plowed his full body weight into the hit... and thought: the vaccine did this

You say this happens "weekly" but cant name any other incidents.

Something doesn't add up alright.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#75

Post by petodo » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 8:07 AM UTC

joaorico wrote: post #41

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #17

For those who are desperate to draw a link between vaccines and heart attacks, this article essentially says the opposite of that. While the paper itself doesn't differentiate between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, it does contain a graph showing a state-by-state breakdown of acute myocardial infarction (AMI)-associated deaths: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/c0aed082-9f81-4a88... Dark purple is a…

Simpson’s paradox should be taken into account. If you group the population into only 2 groups: all of the vaccinated and all the unvaccinated, regardless of age; then the vaccinated had a higher death toll. But age is a hidden factor. The older have more risks and are more vaccinated. If you group by vaccination AND by age bracket, the opposite happens. For example, the 60 to 65 vaccinated have a lower death rate th…

The study is about age group 25-44 where you should really not expect heart attack (very rare).

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#76

Post by petodo » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 8:10 AM UTC

tremere wrote: post #39

aliqot wrote: post #33

What if this is just due to people on average being the fattest and most stressed out they've ever been? Being inside for a few years didn't help everyone physically.

Obesity has been trending up even before the pandemic. I don't see how driving through stressful traffic for 60-120+ minutes per day and eating restaurant food is supposed to make anyone healthier. In my personal experience, the pandemic led me to build a home gym and prepare my own food, both of which have seem to have led to better health both "objectively" (weight, cholesterol, CRP, VO2max) and subjectively (how I…

> In my personal experience, the pandemic led me to build a home gym and prepare my own food, both of which have seem to have led to better health both "objectively" (weight, cholesterol, CRP, VO2max) and subjectively (how I "feel").

Yeah, I doubt this applies to majority of office workers, majority of people just stopped moving while WFH and get fatter, so obviously their physical condition deteroriated vax/COVID or not.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#77

Post by autoexec » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 8:11 AM UTC

annyeonghada wrote: post #69

autoexec wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines? I don't believe that anyone has completely ruled out vaccines. I think that's a boogeyman conspiracy theorists tell each other "The possible risks from vaccines are forbidden from being considered or talked about!". It's attractive to conspiracy minded people to have secret suppressed information that "they" don't want yo…

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It's just my opinion, so dismissing it fair enough, but people should take care not to ignore facts because an unrelated opinion is stated in way that makes them uncomfortable. That seems like a recipe for willful ignorance.

It's sensible to argue against or ignore an opinion you disagree with. It's not sensible to dismiss facts presented because the person presenting them holds an opinion you disagree with, or even to ignore them because of indications of bias. Suspected bias is a reason for caution, not for the outright rejection or avoidance of facts.

If someone can't argue against the evidence presented, I suppose it may make them feel more comfortable to simply dismiss it by using any excuse they can find, but I encourage people to embrace any cognitive dissonance they might be feeling. That feeling of discomfort is often our brain trying tell us that something is wrong with our worldview or at the very least that our currently held position is worth reexamining.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#78

Post by logicchains » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 8:14 AM UTC

nyrulez wrote: post #21

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #17

For those who are desperate to draw a link between vaccines and heart attacks, this article essentially says the opposite of that. While the paper itself doesn't differentiate between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, it does contain a graph showing a state-by-state breakdown of acute myocardial infarction (AMI)-associated deaths: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/c0aed082-9f81-4a88... Dark purple is a…

It's difficult to draw conclusions because first graph is not the delta in deaths, just total deaths. and southern states have always had a high cardiovascular mortality. I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines? Whenever this discussion comes up, its either complete blame or zero blame. How about investigate it like any other factor with the help of proper data? A…

>My doctor said he doesn't know if it's common enough because they are not instructed to collect this information.

Some other countries are collecting this data, and it's not uncommon. Prospective studies (which compare cardiovascular health measurements of a cohort pre- and post-vaccine) show a myocarditis rate of around 0.1-1% in teenagers. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36602621/ https://www.mdpi.com/2414-6366/7/8/196 . Compared to no observable increase in the rate of myocarditis from covid infection itself: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9025013/

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#79

Post by WillPostForFood » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 8:17 AM UTC

tarsinge wrote: post #70

nyrulez wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to draw conclusions because first graph is not the delta in deaths, just total deaths. and southern states have always had a high cardiovascular mortality. I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines? Whenever this discussion comes up, its either complete blame or zero blame. How about investigate it like any other factor with the help of proper data? A…

> In my own case, I had significant cardiovascular issues at a relatively young age, 1 week after I got my booster. The vaccine is only a part of the virus right (the spike protein)? Yes for you it’s likely the cause, your experience regarding data collection might be anecdotal because there are growing evidence regarding myocarditis following the vaccine for example. What is usually missed is that you and people res…

The virus is known to cause significant cardiovascular damage (orders of magnitude more than the vaccine in healthy young adults),

This is not true. It might be true across all age groups and genders, but when you narrow to young men, the vaccines shows similar rates of heart issues, or much higher in the case of Moderna, than from Covid alone.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbS_AvMaQAEiMCZ?format=jpg&name=...

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-...

But the risk of myocarditis associated with the vaccine was lower than the risk associated with COVID-19 infection before or after vaccination – with one exception. Men under 40 who received a second dose of the Moderna vaccine had a higher risk of myocarditis following vaccination.

That risk rose with the second dose for all three vaccines studied and was highest for Moderna's, which had an additional 97 myocarditis cases per 1 million. For unvaccinated men under 40 with COVID-19, there were 16 additional myocarditis cases per million.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#80

Post by arghnoname » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 8:19 AM UTC

tarsinge wrote: post #70

nyrulez wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to draw conclusions because first graph is not the delta in deaths, just total deaths. and southern states have always had a high cardiovascular mortality. I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines? Whenever this discussion comes up, its either complete blame or zero blame. How about investigate it like any other factor with the help of proper data? A…

> In my own case, I had significant cardiovascular issues at a relatively young age, 1 week after I got my booster. The vaccine is only a part of the virus right (the spike protein)? Yes for you it’s likely the cause, your experience regarding data collection might be anecdotal because there are growing evidence regarding myocarditis following the vaccine for example. What is usually missed is that you and people res…

I had adverse cardiovascular issues soon after the vaccine. I've wondered about this, but as far as I can tell the 'covid would have been worse' argument is not definitive. At least with later strains, virus / spike protein may be more localized in the respiratory system than vaccine (at least in cases where the administration inadvertently crosses a vein. I've seen some studies on both sides of this argument, but nothing that was compelling to me. It didn't match my personal experience, that's for sure.

I had my adverse event with the second shot from the vaccine. I was scared to get the booster, eventually got COVID over a year (18 months?) since the original vaccine, so presumably it was offering no protection at that time. I got sicker with COVID. It was unpleasant, but it was 'like the flu, but different.' Very much a respiratory ailment.

My heart was not seemingly affected at all. I had an increase of 5-10 beats per minute for a day or too, which I also got with the flu. Following the vaccine I had a spike in resting hard rate north of 100 BPM almost all the time for months. I'm young, healthy, exercise a lot, etc. The period after my vaccine felt like I was in a bad way and it took a long time to recover.

I was so confident in the vaccines that I initially assumed I was developing a severe anxiety disorder. It was not good.

I can't conclude anything definitive from my anecdotal experience, but I'm not going to touch any mRNA vaccine until these cases are studied and understood.