I think that the human mind is not evolved for, and does not cope well in societies at the scale we now live in. I think there's a certain tipping point where social cohesion begins to break down, and people's psychology begins to shift from participation in a society of their peers, to guarding themselves from a society of potentially dangerous strangers. I think this phenomena has been extrapolated to a large scale. I also think that the society consisting of people who are largely genetically different from yourself has an impact as well on social cohesion, and by extension, on how people behave in society.
Ask HN: Why Is Everything Declining?
231–240 of 835 posts
Re: Ask HN: Why Is Everything Declining?
#232This is pretty much just the inevitable consequence of a market-based, individualist society that is obsessed with removing any standards or expectations on behavior, cultural output, language use, dress, or anything else. Unfortunately, I don't expect things to improve until people start caring about their local communities (i.e. the other people around them) and "Society" in general in a concrete, actionable way, a…
Yes. Your prescribed remedy reminds me of Scruton's oikophilia.
Re: Ask HN: Why Is Everything Declining?
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
I try not to argue with strangers much on the internet, but I really disagree with you on this one. What someone wears is a part of their self-expression. In this post, you use the phrases "respect for one's appearance" and "care about [one's] appearance" to suggest that people have a responsibility to follow certain norms in how they dress in order to make "'civilization' aesthetically appealing," in your words. Aes…
Some people think that aesthetics is entirely subjective. This is the default view of Western liberal democracies, especially among people that haven’t really thought much about the topic. Some people, including a lot of philosophers and art theorists that can be considered “experts”, disagree. I would consider myself in this camp, although not a credentialed expert by any means. And no, I’m not “projecting my aesthe…
Some people not only think that that aestethics is entirely objective (which may or may not be true), but also think that their perception is somehow authoritative on the matter!
Their opinion is that everything they like is objectively beautiful, and everything they don't like is objectively ugly.
How narcissistic do those people have to be to hold themselves in such an unrealistically high regard?
Re: Ask HN: Why Is Everything Declining?
#234I really believe that this is what happens when you go so long without a substantial recession coupled with an easy money regime. There's apathy because no one has been scared in a long time. Landlords haven't been scared of not finding renters and not being able to pay their mortgages. Workers haven't been really scared of not finding jobs. Businesses have not really been scared of not being able to raise money. Awf…
> Awful behavior in general comes from an absence of fear
I assume you meant _specific_ fears about the consequences of one's _specific_ actions (e.g. fear of harming someone else, or fear of receiving backlash for it; or fear of squandering scarce funds for a business).
Fear does not unconditionally bring sanity. I've found widespread, chronic, low-grade background fear to be an equally significant driver of awful behavior (and irrationality), often (but not always) co-occurring with an absence of specific consequences.
(The implication being that trying to "solve" this problem with more general terror, as opposed to specific consequences, would likely backfire.)
Re: Ask HN: Why Is Everything Declining?
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
>being a grown-ass adult in pajamas out in public I'm with you about all the other things but people wearing whatever clothes they want to affects you in literally no way shape or form.
Dress how you want in your own house. The public space isn't yours and you don't have a right to dress indecently in the public space. Turns out, some of us want to live in a society that takes itself seriously and gives a shit. Walking around in your Cookie Monster PJs just doesn't cut it. THIS mindset is what I think is the root of all the other listed problems. Somehow freedom has come to mean "I can do whatever I…
> Dress how you want in your own house. The public space isn’t yours and you don’t have a right to dress indecently in the public space.
“Indecently”, perhaps [0], but…
> Walking around in your Cookie Monster PJs just doesn’t cut it.
I mean, you do have a right to do this; its not indecent by any definition that is excluded from the scope of personal rights, it just doesn’t mean some people’s fashion preference.
> Somehow freedom has come to mean “I can do whatever I want as long as it doesn’t cause you physical injury” -
If you delete “physical” with “legally cognizable” [1], that’s…exactly what freedom actually means.
> completely throwing the ideals of common decency, mutual respect, obligation to your community, etc. out the window.
“common decency”, “mutual respect”, and “obligation to your community” (beyond legally defined obligations) are subjective, mutually defined limits, and freedom means that you are not bound by other people’s idea of them that you do not share, and, similarly, they aren’t bound to yours, except to the extent that each of you decides to be, perhaps because you want something from the other beyond what is legally obligatory.
[0] EDIT: Though, honestly, while I don’t see the usual definitions of this in the West as urgently problematic, I’m skeptical of the usefulness and compatibility with liberty of the general concept of “indecent” dress. There are very good health and safety regulations about dress in certain contexts, but the idea that the visibility of body parts is a source of the kind of harm to anyone that would warrant limitations on free choice aside from those particular contexts is dubious.
[1] EDIT: and additionally, define what is “legally cognizable” injury by a robust concept of personal rights both defining such injury from the PoV of the rights of the injured and defining exceptions to when injury is legally cognizable based on the rights of the actor who might cause injury. You can have a bad definition of what injuries are legally cognizable which conflicts with freedom.
Re: Ask HN: Why Is Everything Declining?
#236> Anyone else have other examples? Elected president who is so crass and generally offensive he wouldn't have gotten close to being elected 50 years ago. Elected president who is showing clear signs of age related cognitive decline (so they say) but continues to occupy the office. Elected presidents with criminal behaviour that is far worse than what previous presidents were impeached or resigned for. Mental illness,…
Yeah the stock trading in congress is another one for your list. I sometimes feel like America is the most corrupt country I've ever encountered. it's not overt like "Pay me $50 and you can avoid a ticket" but it's pernicious and wide spread. - Law makers trade on what they're going to vote prior to voting it - charging people a different price for the exact same procedure, at the same location, under the same market…
everything on this thread relies on ignorance about what was occurring in some prior time
so transparency is improving huh
Re: Ask HN: Why Is Everything Declining?
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
A society is made up of people. The way people act, dress, talk, or do anything else has a pretty direct impact on other people in that society. Unless your definition of society is an extremely disconnected one, comprised of alienated individuals that have no interaction with each other, yes, it does affect other people.
It only affects people who care about what other people wear, and those people shouldn’t have any sort of societal influence because that’s stupid. Name literally one reason that wearing pajamas in public will cause another person actual harm and I’ll take back this statement.
Would you dress that way to meet your partner's parents for the first time? Or to see a friend you haven't seen in years? Or to represent your company at an event? What about going somewhere where you are expected to be a role model? Of course not. That's because you give a shit about the impression you give in those situations and understand the kind of atmosphere and impression it gives if you dress like a bum.
Now try having that same level of respect for your community, for your public spaces, for the people who share those public spaces with you. It's called living in a community.
Re: Ask HN: Why Is Everything Declining?
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
>being a grown-ass adult in pajamas out in public I'm with you about all the other things but people wearing whatever clothes they want to affects you in literally no way shape or form.
Dress how you want in your own house. The public space isn't yours and you don't have a right to dress indecently in the public space. Turns out, some of us want to live in a society that takes itself seriously and gives a shit. Walking around in your Cookie Monster PJs just doesn't cut it. THIS mindset is what I think is the root of all the other listed problems. Somehow freedom has come to mean "I can do whatever I…
This is a disgusting point of view. You view those who are different from you as subhuman. I bet you see people who wear their tradional non-Western clothing as icky, or poor people as dirty. Anyone not wearing a suit and tie is not worthy of your respect? And dare someone wear something comfortable, because they don't conform to YOUR norms they're somehow being disrespectful, when YOU are the one lacking the base decency to see other humans as worthy of respect.
Re: Ask HN: Why Is Everything Declining?
#239I'll preface this by saying this is all anecdotal evidence based on my personal observations, so it may not apply to everyone. I often feel the same way, especially with tech. For those of us that remember before the internet was ubiquitous, the optimism and promise of the "information super highway" seems in stark contrast with what we see today. I try to keep in mind a few things: First, we are living in a time tha…
This is a great idea! With everything on the internet trending towards instant gratification, it's counter intuitive for some of the most rewarding things to be slow. Building new relationships with people in your community takes time but it can be one of the nicest things when it goes well. Strengthening friendships usually feels worth it too.
Re: Ask HN: Why Is Everything Declining?
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
>being a grown-ass adult in pajamas out in public I'm with you about all the other things but people wearing whatever clothes they want to affects you in literally no way shape or form.
Dress how you want in your own house. The public space isn't yours and you don't have a right to dress indecently in the public space. Turns out, some of us want to live in a society that takes itself seriously and gives a shit. Walking around in your Cookie Monster PJs just doesn't cut it. THIS mindset is what I think is the root of all the other listed problems. Somehow freedom has come to mean "I can do whatever I…
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