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Magic the Gathering players lament the loss of 30-year history

mtgrocks.com

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Re: Magic the Gathering players lament the loss of 30-year history

#112
post #73

I have never played MTG, never even read the rules (are there rules?) But I watched the video [1] linked from this text: > Whether it’s a crazy top-decked Lightning Helix... and listening to the play-by-play I swear to God I felt like I was watching a Simpsons parody of a geek convention. I had absolutely no idea what was going on, on idea what half the words meant, and no idea why everyone freaked out at the end. Ca…

A top comment on the video you linked explains it.

>FOR YOU GUYS WHO COULD NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED: CRAIG JONES HAD 1 TURN TO DEAL AT LEAST 7 DAMAGE TO OLIVIER, SO: AT THE END PHASE, CRAIG USED A CARD CALLED "CHAR", DEALING 4 DAMAGE TO OLIVER AND 2 TO HIMSELF, BRINGING HIM DOWN TO 1 LIFE POINT. AT THE DRAW PHASE, HE DRAWS LIGHTNING HELIX, DEALING 3 MORE DAMAGE, DEALING A TOTAL OF 7 DAMAGE TO OLIVER AND WINNING THE GAME WITH 1 LIFE POINT.

Re: Magic the Gathering players lament the loss of 30-year history

#113
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually surprised that ASP & Access were cheaper than PHP & (assuming) mySQL. In Belgium it was the other way around. PHP and MySQL was cheap, anything Microsoft related was more expensive.

...probably running on pirated windows lmao

Must have been a hell of a fight? Pirates from the British or the Spanish crown?

Re: Magic the Gathering players lament the loss of 30-year history

#114
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is there not to hate? Presumably what monero-xmr means is: If you're MTG fan, the thing not to hate is MTG, and MTG+WOTC are a package deal. Much like Star Wars fans have learned to put up with Disney's attempts to wring every last dollar out of the franchise.

> Much like Star Wars fans have learned to put up with Disney's attempts to wring every last dollar out of the franchise. They're just continuing in George Lucas' footsteps. IMHO, either you accept the money grabs, or your acknowledge only the two films, Star Wars and the Empire Strikes Back; even Return was money grubbing.

Lucas made 6 Star Wars movies in 30 years. That’s not even close to what Disney is doing.

Re: Magic the Gathering players lament the loss of 30-year history

#115
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very hard to do an open alternative to MTG. MTG's ecosystem is very closely tied to the economics of the physical cards driving the development and community (ie card shops.) Tools for playing magic without cards of course exist, but the vitality of the community depends on the constant refreshing of the environment tied to carefully balanced development.

Of note here is Null Signal Games - https://nullsignal.games/ Android: Netrunner was a great cyberpunk-themed, asymmetrical card game which ran 2012-2018, and ended because of a licensing disagreement between FFG and WotC. Null Signal Games is a donation and volunteer-driven organization which has been shepherding the game - designing new sets, commissioning artists, providing prize kits, and organizing big events to…

I'm quite into this space. I played virtually every LCG that FFG published. I still have all of my original Netrunner LCG cards.

I'm very interested in seeing how Null Signal progresses. The LCG community has always had problems with gaining new members. A new game would launch, tons of people pick up the core sets. The games get into their first few cycles, and then no new people start to join. Then another LCG would come out, and people would go play the new hotness. I don't know if Null Signal is trying to overcome this problem though.

I did find it interesting that WotC has seemingly abandoned their Netrunner trademark [0]. I wonder if that means they Null Signal is effectively in the free in clear. They always seemed to be operating in a bit of a grey area. I don't have a lawyer friend who I've been able to ask.

In this same vein, Pinebox Entertainment [1] has been keeping AEG's Doomtown: Reloaded alive in a similar way. Another fantastic "LCG"* that a big company quit supporting but was picked up a by another small group. Neither of these games have a big following, but I'm interested if either of them will make an economically viable competitive LCG game. As it stands, FFG and AEG have abandoned all of their competitive FFGs. And FFG had several. Only their cooperative LCGs remain.

[0]: https://uspto.report/TM/90791419

[1]: https://pineboxentertainment.com/

* I say "LCG" because that was a trademarked term by FFG. AEG wasn't allowed to call it LCG. I forget what they called it. But it had an identical distribution model.

Re: Magic the Gathering players lament the loss of 30-year history

#116
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of note here is Null Signal Games - https://nullsignal.games/ Android: Netrunner was a great cyberpunk-themed, asymmetrical card game which ran 2012-2018, and ended because of a licensing disagreement between FFG and WotC. Null Signal Games is a donation and volunteer-driven organization which has been shepherding the game - designing new sets, commissioning artists, providing prize kits, and organizing big events to…

> Just to not give a purely rosy picture, I'll note that they foster a very combative social justice element which drove some heavy-handed choices This is also true of WotC.

As far as I know, it's a whole different scale of issue. WotC did some fashionable corporate virtue signaling. Some of it sounded reasonable enough to me, some of it was a bit eyerolly but nothing I'm aware of seemed too egregious.

To give one example - Netrunner has (had, I guess) a mechanic called Brain Damage, tied to effects which in lore terms did just that to the runner (hacker) character: heavily damaged by nasty corp tech while jacked into the cyberspace, and having to operate with less capacity/limited resources from that point on. Pretty standard cyberpunk stuff.

Null Signal decided one day that the term is grossly insensitive and now purged from the game, and while they might've told you to print cards containing it up until yesterday, reading it off your cards is now considered literal violence and will get you booted off tournaments. If you're not immediately 100% on board with this decision, you are a morally deficient person and not welcome in the community.

Re: Magic the Gathering players lament the loss of 30-year history

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between this and the recent attempt at looting the D&D community for all it's worth that horribly backfired ( https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2023/01/dd-maker-retreats-fro... ) what is there not to hate? As far as I'm concerned I'm done being charitable to them. They've never been fantastic, and Hasbro has clearly been demanding their dues forcing this. My biggest hope is the Magic community has a great open alternati…

It's very hard to do an open alternative to MTG. MTG's ecosystem is very closely tied to the economics of the physical cards driving the development and community (ie card shops.) Tools for playing magic without cards of course exist, but the vitality of the community depends on the constant refreshing of the environment tied to carefully balanced development.

I don't think it's that hard. I gave that a bit of thought when I finished my degree. At the time, I had written an M:tG expert system, for my end-of-year project, that included a rules engine and an ability text parser [1]. The parser was written in Prolog with Definite Clause Grammars so it could generate new ability text as easy as it could recognise it [2].

I realised that all it would take to make a community version of Magic would be to change all the parts of ability text that are IP in my grammar [3]. For example "tapping", "kavu", "merfolk" and "phyrexian mana" would be out. But other than that, about 60% of the game could be basically replicated. That's 60% because it was just a degree project and so incomplete (e.g. Planeswalkers had just come out and they weren't implemented).

Alternatively the entire engine and its language could be re-written from scratch, though that would take a lot more work.

As to having actual cards to play with, I thought it would be a great idea to let the players make their own cards, just like many casual players make their own proxies of published cards. That would add a creative element to the hobby, similar to modelling in Warhammer games, that I thought would make it into something entirely new.

Suffice it to say, after my degree I never had the time to actively pursue this. But I still think it's perfectly possible.

Edit: just to be clear, the reason why it's interesting to have a generator for rules text is that you can generate, and validate, new cards automagickally. Then you can let the players script their own cards and validate them against the parser. So the entire game is completely decentralised with the only authority being the parser (and its maintenance team). Game balance is a problem but that, too, can be dealt with by tweaking the parser so it won't generate or accept imba cards.

_______________

[1] M:tG Arena uses the same idea today, but that was back in 2011. To clarify, the idea is that the ability text on cards is parsed and interpreted just like a scripting language. The interpreter, then, is the rules engine. The alternative is to code each individual card separately, which was done by earlier systems but is complete madness given the thousands of M:tG cards that have to be treated this way.

[2] Prolog programs can be "run backwards" under some conditions, so a parser is also a generator.

[3] Again this was in Prolog so the grammar was the parser. Definite Clause Grammars are syntactic sugar for Prolog so they're executable as any Prolog program. So you write a grammar, you have a parser, and it's also a generator.

Re: Magic the Gathering players lament the loss of 30-year history

#118

WOTC doesn’t care about hardcore fans who have history with the franchise, they just care about creating limited run products to juice the fans. It’s been impossible to take the game seriously from a competitive standpoint for about the past decade where they’ve continued to move further and further from the block-core annual release cycle.

I wonder if WotC is failing to stay relevant in an era of increased entertainment.

Back in the 90’s, we didn’t have streaming services and smart phones with dozens of apps. Hell social media barely existed (maybe MySpace was out then). Most households in America did not have internet. Video game consoles were just starting to gain traction, but were not nearly as ubiquitous as you see today.

So trading cards were a solution to that. It’s an offline, cheap hobby that kids and teenagers could pick up relatively quickly.

I’m wondering what their influx numbers are now - are new players still joining the game at the same rate as in the 90’s? Do people still play Magic considering all the other entertainment sources we have today?

Re: Magic the Gathering players lament the loss of 30-year history

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between this and the recent attempt at looting the D&D community for all it's worth that horribly backfired ( https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2023/01/dd-maker-retreats-fro... ) what is there not to hate? As far as I'm concerned I'm done being charitable to them. They've never been fantastic, and Hasbro has clearly been demanding their dues forcing this. My biggest hope is the Magic community has a great open alternati…

> Between this and the recent attempt at looting the D&D community for all it's worth that horribly backfired ( https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2023/01/dd-maker-retreats-fro ...) what is there not to hate? I’ve been playing Magic since 1994 and I’m still an actively involved player and collector. I could not give two shits about a marketing piece from a decade ago being removed from a website. Fight that hoarding inst…

I don't know, I think maybe there was a lot of the kind of comment that you mean, in what has been deleted, but there was a time that Wizzards' site published high quality articles on strategy and competitive play. I'm thinking of the time when Fires (of Yavimaya) was the deck to beat and Zvi Mowshowitz was one of the contributors, along with other members of ... team fireball, I think it was?

The articles by MaRo weren't that bad either, but I guess those won't be going missing.

Re: Magic the Gathering players lament the loss of 30-year history

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Between this and the recent attempt at looting the D&D community for all it's worth that horribly backfired ( https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2023/01/dd-maker-retreats-fro ...) what is there not to hate? I’ve been playing Magic since 1994 and I’m still an actively involved player and collector. I could not give two shits about a marketing piece from a decade ago being removed from a website. Fight that hoarding inst…

I don't know, I think maybe there was a lot of the kind of comment that you mean, in what has been deleted, but there was a time that Wizzards' site published high quality articles on strategy and competitive play. I'm thinking of the time when Fires (of Yavimaya) was the deck to beat and Zvi Mowshowitz was one of the contributors, along with other members of ... team fireball, I think it was? The articles by MaRo we…

From what I can tell they kept the good stuff and deleted the fluff that no one was visiting. Here’s a classic Zvi article:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/top-50-artifacts-a...

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