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An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

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Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested. What sort of regulations do you think would affect the robo-lawyer space in the UK? Self-representation is frowned upon and mostly disallowed. Lawyers are expensive. I'd genuinely consider having ChatGPT fight for me.

Self-representation is frowned upon, "a person with themselves for a client has a fool for a client." But, where in the UK system is it disallowed, unless you are a repeated, "freeman of the land" nonsense spouter?

Off the top of my head: depending on the jurisdiction there are several important legal documents that you are disalllowed from filing yourself and the judge is allowed to reject you with or without reason

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#682

This company is either run by someone who doesn't understand the tech or is willfully fraudulent. ChatGPT and company are far from good enough to be entrusted with law. Having interacted extensively with modern LLMs, I absolutely know something like this would happen: > Defendant (as dictated by AI): The Supreme Court ruled in Johnson v. Smith in 1978... > Judge: There was no case Johnson v. Smith in 1978. LLMs hallu…

That's hilarious, watch some of the trails on courtTV on youtube. The trials are are as culturally biased as you can get. And these ones are the ones we get to see. Judges are not some logical Spock! Free of influence, politics, and current group think. But people who think about their careers, public opinion and know who pays their paycheck. And these are the the competent ones. I remember judge Judy proclaiming "If…

Well duh, law and justice are culturally biased by definition, that's why they are different in different jurisdictions.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#683

There is going to be a lot of this happening. With lawyers, doctors, journalists, all kinds of expensive experts and consultants are going to face some competition from tools like this used by their customers to reduce their dependence on expensive experts or at least to get a second opinion; or even a first opinion. Whether that's misguided or not is not the question. The only question is how good/valuable the AI ad…

>There is going to be a lot of this happening. With lawyers, doctors, journalists, all kinds of expensive experts and consultants are going to face some competition from tools like this used by their customers to reduce their dependence on expensive experts or at least to get a second opinion; or even a first opinion. What are you on about? This has been ongoing for decades. You're talking down to hypothetical doctor…

Nonsense. I know a few GPs, they sure aren't using anything fancy on their laptops. They might google a bit at best but not on their locked down work laptop full of medical files and privacy sensitive data. And never while patients are looking. Most doctors I know use computers mostly for administrative stuff.

Lawyers are actually worse. Lots of paper based administration. Patent lawyers use expensive search systems that are hard to use and query. But even that is pretty unintelligent and that's actually by design. They want to screen everything manually. I build search engines for a living, either group could benefit massively from even a simple one.

The introduction of AI to this space has not happened yet. The little bit of experimentation that has happened with analyzing MRI scans, expert systems, etc. has of course had a limited impact. But most doctors operate without any of that.

I think you are overestimating what search engines do, and underestimating what AI can do. Not in the distant future but right now.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#684

This company is either run by someone who doesn't understand the tech or is willfully fraudulent. ChatGPT and company are far from good enough to be entrusted with law. Having interacted extensively with modern LLMs, I absolutely know something like this would happen: > Defendant (as dictated by AI): The Supreme Court ruled in Johnson v. Smith in 1978... > Judge: There was no case Johnson v. Smith in 1978. LLMs hallu…

ChatGPT Is currently very insistent that there is no letter T in Saturday. That alone should be proof enough that you can't blindly trust it

Even then, before the December update it was sure that there was a T in Sunday

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone else have a better explanation for why there was such a visceral response? I can't speak for lawyers in general or what everyone's motivations would be, but my initial reaction was that it seemed like a somewhat unethical experiment. I assume the client would have agreed or represented themselves, but even there -- legal advice is tricky because it's advice -- it feels unethical to tell a person to rely…

When you're poor you have the choice between an AI that may work or you'll be defending yourself. Access to legal assistance is almost as unobtainable as a dentist these days.

> When you're poor you have the choice between an AI that may work or you'll be defending yourself.

This is a thing that lots of people say about unethical businesses, and I'm a little skeptical about it at this point. A couple of objections I have:

- You have a constitutional right to legal representation when accused of a crime by the US government, and while we don't to abandon people who are suffering now because of some theoretical future fix, we also don't want to normalize the idea that constitutional rights only exist when a private market accommodates them. That's explicitly a bad direction for the country to go.

- Saying "well, this works here and now, and people don't have access to anything better" is in my mind only a really effective argument when we know that the thing here and now actually works. But we don't know that this works, which changes a lot about the equation.

- Is sneaking an AI into a courtroom through an earpiece really a cost-effective accessible strategy for poor people? Nothing about this screams "accessibility" to me.

I think summing up the last two points, if the AI was proven to actually work in a court of law, and was an accessible option, then sure, at that point I think the argument would have a lot more weight. It wouldn't be ideal, it would be a bad state for us to be in because your constitutional rights should not depend on an AI. But I could see a strong argument for using the AI in the meantime.

But that doesn't mean that DoNotPay should do unethical things right now to get to that point. The way that your choice is being phrased is begging the question: it assumes that the AI is the only choice other than no representation, that it does work, and that it will produce better outcomes.

But we don't actually know if the AI does work in a court of law, and DoNotPay's decision was to "move fast and break things"; it was to start releasing it into the wild without knowing what would happen. We don't know if asking people to represent themselves with a secret earpiece is a good legal strategy or if it's accessible. We don't know what happens when something goes wrong. We don't know that this actually is a working solution. But they were putting someone's legal outcome on the line anyway.

I think there's a big difference between making an imperfect solution available to poor people because we don't have anything better to offer, and using poor people as experimental fodder to build an imperfect solution that might not work at all. There's a lot of assumption here that using their AI would be better than representing yourself, and I don't know that's true. A judge is not going to pleased with being used as an experiment. And I've been hearing people say that the AI subpoenaed the officer involved in the ticket? That's not a good legal strategy.

The proper way to build a solution like this is to make sure it works before you start using it on people, and I think it's unethical to give someone bad legal advice and to try and justify it because giving that person bad legal advice might allow the company to help other people down the line. A lot of our laws around legal representation are predicated on the idea that legal advice should be solely focused on the good of the client, and not focused on the lawyer's career, or on someone else the lawyer wants to help, or on what the lawyer will be able to do in the future. Based on what we know about the state of the AI today, it doesn't seem like DoNotPay was thinking solely about the good of the person they were advising. We really don't want the legal industry to be an industry that embraces "the ends justify the means."

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the custom plates NV and ended up in some sort of dystopia where I got hundreds of parking tickets for all different makes and models of cars until well after I returned the plates. I wrote my story up here... https://100parkingtickets.com/

Good gravy. Thanks for the link. What a read.

I originally wrote that on Craigslists rants and raves at a point in the process when I was starting to get frustrated.

Just writing it out was therapeutic, it helped me see the absurd humor in the situation. Then someone responded with a link to an LA reporter who had written about similar situations.

I contacted him, he wrote a story about me, and all the bureaucratic problems just went away.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is never pulling from a source, then why is it able to provide citations? check the chat bot on you.com: https://you.com/search?q=list%20top%205%20best%20selling%20c...

ChatGPT can provide correct citations because somewhere deep in its weights it does lossily encode real texts and citations to real texts. That makes real citations in some cases be its most confident guess for what is supposed to come next in the sentence. But when there isn't a real text it is confident about giving a citation about, but it still feels like a citation should be next in the output, it will happily i…

A few days ago on HN there was a short story of five paragraphs that started badly & finished OK, and I wondered if some operations research tricks could be applied. One is forward-backward-forward planning, this produces better schedules, and if applied would create a better opening, and perhaps ending (i.e. model is run three times).

In the case of citations, you really need a language model & a fact model. The language model then passes over to the fact model, then back to the language model. This means double(+) training.

I suppose the fact model could include things like Wolfram (also discussed on HN).

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this aint it. "The person challenging a speeding ticket would wear smart glasses that both record court proceedings and dictate responses into the defendant's ear from a small speaker. The system relied on a few leading AI text generators, including ChatGPT and DaVinci." I.e its equivalent of a person effectively studying the actual law and then representing themselves in court, just in a more optimal manner.…

> I.e its equivalent of a person effectively studying the actual law and then representing themselves in court, just in a more optimal manner. It's not equivalent at all. ChatGPT and DaVinci have not "studied the law" in the same way as any human would. > If law firms believed it was bullshit, they would just put a very good attorney on that case and disprove it. Barring it from entry with threat of jailtime pretty m…

Think of chatgpt as a search engine. Does it matter if you use a search engine before the trial, and perhaps bringing a big ass binder to the court with all possible responses, or you do it during the trial?

And any lawyer that can go against gpt3 and win will be a net benefit to the whole law community, showing that lawyers are worth the money.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-representation is frowned upon, "a person with themselves for a client has a fool for a client." But, where in the UK system is it disallowed, unless you are a repeated, "freeman of the land" nonsense spouter?

Off the top of my head: depending on the jurisdiction there are several important legal documents that you are disalllowed from filing yourself and the judge is allowed to reject you with or without reason

Doesn't the comment I am responding to set the jurisdiction as the UK. Can you name any applications you can't make yourself.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#690
post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the question is this. If an AI is doing something illegal like practicing law, how does one sanction an AI? As far as I'm aware, no LLM has reached sentience and started taking on projects of its own volition. So it's easy - you sanction whoever ran the software for an illegal purpose or whoever marketed and sold the software for an illegal purpose.

you cannot sanction the seller of a software, any more than you can sanction the seller of the gun for a murderer.

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