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Contracts you should never sign

vadimkravcenko.com

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Re: Contracts you should never sign

#221

Post by ssnistfajen »

weberer wrote: post #8
vabank wrote: post #3

What's wrong with gym contracts?

Its only a problem with certain large chains, but they are often set up so that they automatically charge you every month and it is very hard to cancel. If a gym doesn't accept cash and demands you pay by credit card, that's a huge red flag. Also check reviews of the gym before you sign up. And of course, actually read the contract before signing. They can waive certain clauses if you confront them. And if they don't…

I thought "gym contract" in the article was an euphemism for specific types of employment contracts and was confused when nowhere else in the article mentioned anything about gyms.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#222

Post by sidewndr46 »

TylerE wrote: post #189
thwayunion wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-competes are dog-eat-dog "fuck you" territory for me. I don't even bother negotiating. I happily sign non-competes, but will never sign a non-compete that's actually enforceable . If their lawyers want to lie to me about what's legal in my state, I'm happy to let them engage in unfair and deceptive behavior right up until there are actual damages. More importantly, I would also happily fight them in court if it c…

Very, very, bad idea. Never sign something you disagree with because you believe it to be unenforceable.

How would you even function in the US? Just one time to get an apartment they had me sign an agreement stating I was not in the military, had never been in the military & would not join so long as I lived there. Keep in mind, I was subject to conscription at the time.

The whole thing is laughably unenforceable as well. They're trying to end run around federal law protecting members of the uniformed services. You can write any contract you want & have anyone you want sign it about. Doesn't mean anything, at all.

Also I'm pretty sure if I got called up to go to war, there is going to be someone in the DoD who can give me a little legal help in explaining to the landlord how hard they need to pound sand.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#223

Post by OkayPhysicist »

nerdponx wrote: post #126
Aeolun wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is going over a contract with legsl just because they removed the ‘we own everything you make’ clause. That’s an irrelevant part of the contract.

My experience in the USA is that they will flatly refuse to change anything in the contract, and will tell you to take it as-is or walk away, in part because they feel like they can't make changes without getting it re-approved by legal first.

I've had the opposite experience. There was always a bit of hand-wringing about "oh, but this is the contract approved by our legal consultants...", but pointing out the fact that A) this clause is flatly impossible to enforce in my jurisdiction and B) it would be immensely silly to blow up this entire hiring process over a contract clause that, best case scenario, would involve them having to sue me and lose to enforce has always made the hiring manager sign off on the reasonable modifications.

Of course, if the clauses are enforceable in your state, it might be a different matter, but that's also an opportunity to make demands. "Sure we agreed to $XXX,XXX , but there was no mention of a noncompete. That's going to need $XXX,XXX+$YY,YYY or $Z weeks of vacation". Make the numbers bigger than you think is reasonable, and they'll probably cave on the contract clause. Or they'll compensate you for it. Win/Win.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#224

Post by OkayPhysicist »

moron4hire wrote: post #53
kibwen wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many-to-most of these clauses are in every boilerplate contract Contracts are entirely negotiable. If there's a job you want, but the contract contains an objectionable clause, tell them that you're willing to accept if they strike that clause. If you're at the point in the hiring process where they're showing you the contract, that means that they've sunk resources into you that they don't want to throw away. And…

In 20 years, I've never seen a company that was willing to negotiate over the employment contract of an employee . As a freelance consultant, I had free range to negotiate, but as an employee, the contract was always presented as "take it or leave."

I've negotiated literally every employment contract I've ever signed. Hiring people is expensive, and by the time you've found someone you're willing to extend an offer to, there's a lot of sunk cost. That, my friend, is called "leverage".

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#225

Post by OkayPhysicist »

JoelMcCracken wrote: post #194

I mean, real talk: every time I ever objected to something like that, they always said something like: "oh, we don't care what you do in your off time. You can always e.g. ask for an exemption for specific open source work later", and "its very unusual for us to change this, we've never had anyone ask for this kind of thing in the past". If I had followed this advice, I would have missed out on one of the best jobs I…

"Well in that case, it shouldn't be a big deal to just strike that clause, right? Here, we'll even scribble in a little line here confirming that the company does, in fact, own the rights to the software I write FOR you, as part of our employment relationship".

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#226

Post by TylerE »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #222
TylerE wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very, very, bad idea. Never sign something you disagree with because you believe it to be unenforceable.

How would you even function in the US? Just one time to get an apartment they had me sign an agreement stating I was not in the military, had never been in the military & would not join so long as I lived there. Keep in mind, I was subject to conscription at the time. The whole thing is laughably unenforceable as well. They're trying to end run around federal law protecting members of the uniformed services. You can…

That’s a good example, but most contracts have language such as “if any clause of this contract is found to be invalid, the rest remains in force”.

So yea, in a case like that that part of the contract would be struck, but it isn’t a get out of jail free card for the entire contract.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#227

Post by metalspot »

johndhi wrote: post #162
toss1 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! It has gotten to the point where I take any contract put in front of me as a statement of how the other party does business. If they contract is all one-sided to their benefit and/or has crazy escape hatches for them and/or penalties for my side, it's best to just walk away, even if it costs a lot. I've tried to negotiate such clauses into something reasonable, and it is just a waste of time. They've told yo…

What? Every click wrap agreement online is very one sided. You think you're saving yourself trouble by not using any online software?

don't bother with a cell phone either. the world is full of stupid contracts with unenforceable terms. sign it without reading and save yourself the headache.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#228

Post by gnicholas »

ccleve wrote: post #99

This is exceptionally poor legal advice. Non-competes are legit if they are narrowly limited in time and scope. It's perfectly fine for a company to demand that if they hand over their proprietary know-how to you, know-how that has cost them years to acquire, you won't take it to the competitor across the street. And no, an NDA is not enough to protect them. They own this information, not you, and no, you can't take…

The WFH analysis seemed incorrect to me also, as a former lawyer. It seems like the advice is geared toward a potential employee, not a potential contractor. If you're a contractor, it's not true that

> If you work for a software hub, any SaaS app you build over the weekend will belong to the company, regardless of whether you do it with company property or not — as it's related to the company's business.

Also, I'm not sure what to make of this claim:

> Belonging to the company means everything, not just the IP — the revenue, the code, and the good vibes.

Isn't this assumed, for both employment and contracting? If you're writing code for someone, then yes they own the code, the associated IP, the revenue they're going to generate with it, and the "good vibes". Which one of these things would an employee or contractor think he's entitled to?

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#229

Post by pixl97 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #181
johndhi wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Every click wrap agreement online is very one sided. You think you're saving yourself trouble by not using any online software?

The thing about online service agreements is they have pretty much zero leverage against you. So what if you violate their little terms of service? Worst they can do is ban your account. Their "take it or leave it" bullshit holds no water.

This depends on the nature of the transactions you're performing.

For example, play that game with Paypal.... whoopsie, they're holding a quarter million of your cash and aren't going to let it go for six months. Of course where this much is at stake reading those agreements is very important.

But take a middle ground. You join a forum and make a side business where you're selling some kind of product to their members. This gets more problematic very fast. It can be nearly impossible to pull your business out of the forum it's embedded in. And this is the exact kind of behaviors we've seen out of large companies like Facebook. They can choose how they please to access 'their' users.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#230

Post by sidewndr46 »

TylerE wrote: post #226
sidewndr46 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you even function in the US? Just one time to get an apartment they had me sign an agreement stating I was not in the military, had never been in the military & would not join so long as I lived there. Keep in mind, I was subject to conscription at the time. The whole thing is laughably unenforceable as well. They're trying to end run around federal law protecting members of the uniformed services. You can…

That’s a good example, but most contracts have language such as “if any clause of this contract is found to be invalid, the rest remains in force”. So yea, in a case like that that part of the contract would be struck, but it isn’t a get out of jail free card for the entire contract.

You're talking about "severability" in US contract law. The rest of the contract was either stupid (regulating my usage of the non-existent golf course) or just garden variety stuff (can't sublet, etc.).

The same company also just dropped off an "updated" contract a few months later and told me that I had to review it and sign it or move out by the end of the month. I obviously just ignored this.

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