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The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

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Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#131
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup Except that it is only local or small risk minimization; the catastrophic existential risks end up maximized to the point of becoming inevitable. With companies, the MBAs happily optimize away anything that isn't immediate revenue. So manufacturing gets offshored, along with all the deep knowledge of how to make things. R&D gets shrunk and minimized because it is a quarterly expense with returns not immediately s…

The entire strategic advantage of the west was sold out thanks to trying to standardize management? Come on, there's certainly an element of truth with relation to the downsides of globalization, but that's some pretty heavy hyperbole. In terms of what is wrong with this apocalyptic view of the future, I would start with the idea that China has some unassailable chokehold on the West. A lot of influence over our supp…

It is not heavy hyperbole. Compare the relative positions of the west vs China only 25 years ago vs today. Before, China had neither military technology to that could challenge the West, nor the size of its economy. Today, it has ripped-off designs of fighter jets for everything from the F-16 to the F-35, carrier-killer missiles, six nuclear attack submarines, a domestically produced aircraft carrier, etc.++, and is the 2nd largest economy in the world. All in a quarter of a century.

We gave away the forking store. And CCP has used that new position to violate it's agreements on Hong Kong, and now continuously and explicitly threaten war on Taiwan.

The great experiment has been tried and resoundingly failed. It was thought that open trade and information exchange would result in openness and democracies in the autocratic countries. Instead, it empowered and emboldened the dictators.

That said, we have noticed, and China has blown it so that they no longer have the benefit of the doubt; we know the experiment failed, and know their absolute intentions to remain autocratic, and grow at the expense of democracies.

So we are now strategically pulling back. I do not think it is anywhere near over. I would not bet on China winning long-term.

But, the west, by trying the Great Experiment (which was truly generous-minded), without restraint (which was stupid) has put ourselves in a far more vulnerable position than we would have otherwise. It will be far more costly and risky to get the democracies of the world out of this mess than it would be if we'd avoided it in the first place

It was unnecessary and strategically foolish.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#132
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thing that gives me hope is that the type of knowledge generation environment in the western world still hasn’t been acquired by dictatorial powers like China. Given the exponentially increasing technological change we’re experiencing, the knowledge transferred via the method you described will likely be surpassed and rendered obsolete relatively quickly (hopefully) and make that transferred knowledge less l…

This sounds to me like an imagined meritocracy fantasy, which in practice would end up a dystopia rife with corruption, injustice, and arrogance.

You are completely correct if the meritocracy fails to provide a fair allocation of resources.

The way it is going, the "merit" scale equates merit with ability to gain control of money. Honesty doesn't even matter; there are many more Madoffs and SBFs of the world that haven't yet gotten caught, and everyone hails them (at least until they fall). Madoff died in jail, but only after he lived decades at the top; some would see that as a good life bargain career plan.

If we build a real meritocracy AND provide for equitable distribution of resources to even the least among us, we can do very well.

There is a lot of movement in that direction, but until the abusers at the top get the point that there will be no society even worth living above without equity, we could be headed for real darkness.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#133
post #3

The author is Ron Garret. He was also interviewed last year on the CoRecursive podcast about the merits of Lisp at JPL, and the opposition to it. It’s worth listening to: https://www.corecursive.com/lisp-in-space-with-ron-garret/

Unrelated, but I noticed the podcast's volume control applies the volume change on mouse release of the volume slider. It prevents adjusting the volume with audio feedback and you have to guess where the slider knob should be.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#134
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being an homoiconic programming language for one, having a powerfull macro system is other. Having s-exprs isn't necessarly required. In fact, there was an Algol like language for Lisp, which was never adopted, as most people were confortable with s-expr, among other issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP_2 Dylan and Julia can also be considered Lisps. Scheme, Interlisp, Common Lisp and many other flavours have s…

Io and Rebol both have homo-iconicity and a macro system. Would you call them a Lisp? No wonder Lisp is the most powerful language in the world, when all powerful languages are secretly Lisp – without even knowing it!!! I mean, the name "Lisp" is short for "List Processing", it's disingenuous to claim that Lisp doesn't need runtime List Processing. https://iolanguage.org/ http://www.rebol.com/

> Lisp doesn't need runtime List Processing

Lisp needs list processing. But it's much more. Lisp has several kinds of numbers, symbols, strings, characters, vectors, arrays, hash tables, records, classes, objects, natively compiled functions, ... -> and all those are not made of lists. An array in Lisp is not made of lists underneath. A natively compiled function is not a list, it's a vector of machine code.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#135
I am always surprised when I read this kind of article. In my mind a good software developer will figure out how to be productive and get things done in any programming language.

I have often worked with programming languages, editors, operating systems etc. that weren’t my #1 choice. However I have usually been happy and productive, using code generation, editor tools or whatever to automate the things I don’t like.

You love Lisp and hate Java? Great! Use it to generate the Java code you don’t want to write. And be smart. Don’t tell management you are using Lisp. If they ask why you are 10x more productive than anybody else, just say you are using a code automation tool to be more productive. Which is true! Or simply shrug your shoulders, and humbly say ”years of experience” :)

The developers I admire and want to hire are the ones that can be thrown into a shitty disaster area where everything is broken, and all the tools are unfamiliar and crappy, and still somehow manage to turn it around and fix it. They are f*** heroes. The software developer equivalent of the Navy Seals.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Structured languages didn't fail, and OO languages took over a few niches.

Yes, but OO languages create the same spaghetti-code morass that imperative languages did. As opposed to, say, functional languages, for which it seems far harder for some reason to create spaghetticode

Some of the cleanest code I have ever seen was written in C/C++. And some of the worst spaghetti-code I have ever seen was written in C/C++.

Bad developers write spaghetti-code. Languages don’t write anything.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#137

I am always surprised when I read this kind of article. In my mind a good software developer will figure out how to be productive and get things done in any programming language. I have often worked with programming languages, editors, operating systems etc. that weren’t my #1 choice. However I have usually been happy and productive, using code generation, editor tools or whatever to automate the things I don’t like.…

> to be productive and get things done in any

Yeah, but the question is how productive are those things that are getting done.

A 100% productive assembly language programmer is not the same as a 100% productive Python programmer.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#139

I am always surprised when I read this kind of article. In my mind a good software developer will figure out how to be productive and get things done in any programming language. I have often worked with programming languages, editors, operating systems etc. that weren’t my #1 choice. However I have usually been happy and productive, using code generation, editor tools or whatever to automate the things I don’t like.…

> to be productive and get things done in any Yeah, but the question is how productive are those things that are getting done. A 100% productive assembly language programmer is not the same as a 100% productive Python programmer.

That might be true for some developers in some contexts, but it has nothing to do with the point I am making.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#140
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nor is the United States any less interested in global hegemony than China. In as far as United States is a democracy, it is not interested in global "hegemony". It is interested in Democracy spreading all over the world. Democracy is not hegemony but freedom for one person to have one vote and nobody being above the law. Of course that could change. A Nazi party could gain the power in US. Then you could say that…

The USA maintains military bases in all corners of the world. From Australia to Guam, Eastern Europe to Brazil. If they're not interested in hegemony and all they want is to spread democracy (sounds eerily similar to the jesuits in the 1500's trying to christen the savages) why would they do that?

If US is able to spread democracy all around the world, it will not be the "Hegemony of the US". It will be the "Hegemony of Democracy".

Consider Germany after WW2. Allied won over Germany but did US establish a "US Hegemony" in Germany? No. They established Democracy in Germany. Once you give people the freedom to self-govern, you can not have hegemony over them, unless you are a corrupt state. But assuming that US is a working democracy, corruption will be rooted out, because people will vote for its removal.

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