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Contracts you should never sign

vadimkravcenko.com

101–110 of 284 posts

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#101

> the best thing we as engineers can do is be aware of the types of contracts we're signing I'd argue that the best thing we can do is to not just make generalizations about what is OK to sign or not. Confidentiality agreements and non-competes are fine if they are narrowly focused, fair, and your compensation is sufficient to make it worth the restrictions. Because that is what a contract really is - a balancing act…

> non-competes are fine if they are narrowly focused, fair, and your compensation is sufficient to make it worth the restrictions

Yes! This is a particularly true for most software engineers. I have a friend who is a doctor whose contract says that if quits, he can't practice medicine within a 30-mile radius for 12 months. His only option would be to move to a different area, take a job with a horrible commute for a year or to wait it out. On the other hand, as a software engineer, I've never been in a situation where my thought is to move to a direct competitor. My skillset is broadly applicable to many industries, and it wouldn't be strange to do one gig for Home Depot, the next one at Google, followed by a role at Tesla.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#102
Grabby abusive employers will likely hate this and downvote...But, while I don't have any experience with separate NDAs, never given nor received (they've always been baked into contracts and never presented a problem, were always scoped and not grabby), yet back in the day I turned down over USD 250K in multiple contracts that had funky "grabby vague IP provisions", or "grabby excessive non-compete provisions" when I was contracting and the contracts related to side-projects. Probably doesn't sound like much, but it was a lot for global remote at the time.

Well, it all worked out well. The personal projects I was working on and protecting paid beyond that now...!! Hahah.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#103

Ancillary, but I'll add to be careful with contracts around purchasing large building items, specifically in my case referring to SteelMaster buildings. They will sell you on something saying they will deliver it and a truck is coming through your area soon, etc., then the sales guy will call at dinner time and say oh by they way your delivery is ready to ship out we just need you to sign something real quick and you…

Lots of complaints here:

https://www.bbb.org/us/va/virginia-beach/profile/modular-bui...

Didn’t see the particular one you mentioned. It is amazing companies like this can get away with so much crap.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#105
You should sign what your trusted legal representation recommends you sign. Many of these situations are more nuanced than an internet blogger looking for clicks is going to make them out to be.

And yes, if you're making a 6-7 figure decision (which you often are when you sign an employment agreement as a software engineer), you should at least have an employment attorney give it a look through.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#106
post #2

Hey everyone, author here :) I'm sure most of you have more experience with contracts, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on stuff we, developers, shouldn't sign. Cheers, Vadim

Hi Vadim, it’s so great you’ve written this and are trying to help others! It might be worth pointing out that in some places (Australia, I think California? And probably the European Union) the non-compete clauses can’t be enforced because companies aren’t allowed to stop you from making a living. Anti-poaching of employees sure but not anti-compete. So maybe people could do a quick google for their country or state…

Good advice. Same with Canada.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#107
Noncompetes are mostly bullshit in the EU. Startup lawyers know the CEO has read too much SV literature so they write down that clause to make them happy.

"Everything belongs to your employer" clauses seem scarier to me although I have never seen them enforced either. But if you are making your employees sign those you should know it will likely kill their motivation to work on side projects, which will make them less competitive and motivated at work.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#108
post #82
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many-to-most of these clauses are in every boilerplate contract Contracts are entirely negotiable. If there's a job you want, but the contract contains an objectionable clause, tell them that you're willing to accept if they strike that clause. If you're at the point in the hiring process where they're showing you the contract, that means that they've sunk resources into you that they don't want to throw away. And…

They don't give a damn, but every time I've asked for changes to contracts, including positions I was actively recruited for by the hiring manager, once even by the owner of the company, I'm told to sign it or no job. In the case of the owner asking me to apply, they literally said "My lawyer says to leave it in, you're not a lawyer, it's staying in." I'm sure some people have negotiated these things but I've tried m…

Can you clarify if you walked away (and they let you) or not? Because if not, then it was just negotiating 101.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#109
Non competes are becoming less and less enforceable in the US.

I left my old company and wanted to start a competing business in a different vertical in the e-commerce space. What actually stopped me was the privacy and inventions and non disclosure agreements.

Pretty much it prevented me from using any know how I learned while at my last company and disallowed me from using any of the same suppliers and marketplaces to buy and sell on (of which there are few in my business domain).

In my experience, these types of agreements can be the actual thing that stops you from doing your own thing.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#110
post #57

There's this HN obsession with negotiating on non-competes. Here's the problem. Say that I work for Acme Corp that makes Fancy Widgets for Bridgettes with 11 Digits and I'm hiring a software engineer. We put out the offer and give them time to respond. They come back saying they would like the offer to be $10k higher. No problem... As the hiring manager, I might already know that we have $10k leeway, or at the most,…

Well lets say you work at TechCompany. TechCompany makes most of its revenue off of ads, but it has a bunch of side bets in classifieds, AI, self driving cars (or so its rumored), virtual reality, chat, even some finance tools. Now you want to go to NewTechCompany to go work on something there. But $TechCompany says you can't do that, they are a competitor, you can't work there for 12 months like your noncompete says! And you reply well no, I worked on search engine stuff here, I will be working on big data tools there, its completely different! And TechCompany just says- "No, they are also a tech company. You can't work there. On anything."

So you think about this for a minute, and go back out and go get an offer from an ad company (in the digital space). And again TechCompany comes back and says "No you cant work there, they are a competitor! We do ads too!" And you come back and are a little pissed now, and say "I have never worked on ads in your company before, I have no idea what that is all about, I don't have access to any of that stuff! I am going and stuff it!"

TechCompany now comes back and says "well we have an army of lawyers, we have already sent a letter to their legal department saying we intend to sue." This ad company is small and does business with TechCompany, and doesn't want to upset them or get into a long and expensive legal battle. They rescind your offer...

You now look at what else is out there... healthcare? probably not... they have some forays into that too. Insurance? ok maybe. A consulting firm? The options are just... small.

This by the way is not some completely fictional scenario. These agreements are meant to intimidate you and make it more difficult for you to leave. I had an egregious noncompete put on me, that essentially said I could not work in any business the company was involved in (which was ever expanding- though in the financial space), and at first they wanted it to be a fixed payment for not working, which while the number was equivalent to about 6 months of my base salary (which was only half of my total compensation roughly), I knew people at that firm that had been there 15 years. That number they signed was now paltry. They relented and said it could be based on base salary for that year, but that was it. I swallowed the bullet because I liked the company otherwise and the pay was great. Later I renegotiated my comp toward my base salary to make sure I was taken care of if I left.

Anyway, the specific details in my situation don't really matter. My wife has also been bent over by a non-compete in a similar fashion. You need to read this thing thinking about the worst case possible scenario if the company wants to bend you over, and nothing less. Taking these lightly puts you at risk of a world of hurt. My wife had to step back and take shitty jobs for 2 years because of a bad noncompete (for a place that she worked at for 4 months before she was let go after a re-org) and her compensation pretty much halved during that time- we talked to a lawyer, he said yeah you will probably win in the end, but it might take a year, a lot of money, the outcome is uncertain, and no one is going to want to touch you while the case is ongoing. DO NOT take these lightly.

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