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Contracts you should never sign

vadimkravcenko.com

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Re: Contracts you should never sign

#21

Post by smeej »

Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired.

I recently left a company where, when I was hired, I had agreed in "Appendix C" not to recruit any of their employees away from them for a period of 12 months after separation. When I actually separated after more than two years, the "Appendix C" they wanted me to sign and presented as the one I had agreed to at hire now said 24 months. I told them I was happy to stand by my original agreement of 12 months, but I had no incentive to extend to 24 and would not be doing so. They sent me one with the right number and I signed.

Their story was that, in the two years since I'd signed, they changed Appendix C and had "accidentally" given me the one that pertained to people who had been hired after me under the revised terms. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, because why believe people are malicious when they could just as well be careless?

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#22

Post by anonu »

082349872349872 wrote: post #11
anonu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very useful article. Thank you for putting it together. On one hand, you should read an employment contract or options agreement down to the letter, as you highlight. However, in my experience, most contracts have these provisions, at least in the US. Also, companies are going to be reluctant to deviate from a form template as this creates a legal mess down the road. My point being, you'll find it hard to "never sign…

strike out and initial?

Sure - reducing items might work. But asking a company to give you tag along drag along rights when they weren't there just wont float.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#23

Post by ModernMech »

secondstring wrote: post #16

I mean in principle, I agree with all of these points. But in reality if you stick to these rules hard and fast, you'll basically never accept a job offer. That's clearly an exaggeration, but many-to-most of these clauses are in every boilerplate contract. Whether it's a small startup that's using a generic contract they've gotten from the internet or their lawyers, up to massive corporations, they're all going to in…

> But in reality if you stick to these rules hard and fast, you'll basically never accept a job offer. That's clearly an exaggeration, but many-to-most of these clauses are in every boilerplate contract.

In the tech industry, yeah, but there are industries that aren't so employee hostile where you can find better contract terms. I'd have to say in my experience, the tech industry is one of the worst when it comes to the malicious application of employment contracts. Apple is especially egregious with forcing interviewees to sign expansive NDAs; the Dilbert cartoon is spot on by making them dress like Apple store employees.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#24

Post by _puk »

bluGill wrote: post #20
vabank wrote: post #3

What's wrong with gym contracts?

Depends on the type of gym. The cheap ones only can pay the bills if most people are paying but not actually going. So they have to make it hard to end the contract. There are a few gyms that don't, but these tend to be based on personal training or snall group classes. That personal attention means they are more likely to end your contract for you if you are not attending as they need a good reputation to justify th…

Even if it is easy to end the contract (just ask to terminate it option), it is quite common that you have to give X months notice.

They rely on the fact many members will go less and less each month before reviewing and cancelling, so they get paid for 5-6 months.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#25

Post by codingdave »

cloogshicer wrote: post #18
wheybags wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a "we own everything you make" clause in contracts before, it's just copy pasted boilerplate, and they were fine with removing it when I asked. Noncompetes I've been fine with, because they were always quite niche companies, and the wording was something along the lines of "don't join our direct competitors for a few years", and that seems ok to me. I will grant that it gets more complicated with megacorpora…

I think the important thing is that you asked. I've had a very negative experience, where I also asked, and they basically said "sign it or GTFO". So I did the latter, and I'm very glad I did.

A number of years back, our company was acquired and they sent us employment contracts from our new owners, with that same "sign it or GTFO" message. Many people signed. A few of us just didn't. Nastygrams kept on coming, we kept on ignoring them. Ultimately, we never did end up signing.

Which is the other piece of the puzzle - lawyers are really good at knowing when they actually have power and when they do not. Unfortunately, when they don't truly have legal power they resort to bullying. So if you are being bullied to sign a contract, that usually is a red flag to stop, really look at things, and figure out why they are using that tactic. You may be in a better situation than you think.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#26

Post by oytis »

> Anything you do with the company property, e.g., work computer, automatically belongs to the company, even if you do it on the weekends.

That doesn't sound unacceptable to me. It's not that I'm that strict about e.g. reading personal emails etc. on my work computer, but if it's some side hustle, be it for money or for fun, I think it's honest to take your personal machine for that.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#27

Post by donatj »

> Another clause to watch out for […] is the "I agree not to cause any other employees to get hired," which prohibits you from hiring directly or allowing any current employees to get hired by the company to which you went. This clause protects the company from the unlikely event of a manager leaving and taking their team with them.

I had a previous employer threaten to sue me for this after a couple friends followed me to a new job on their own accord and despite having signed nothing of the sort. One strongly worded letter from a lawyer though and they dropped the whole affair.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#28

Post by amelius »

oytis wrote: post #26

> Anything you do with the company property, e.g., work computer, automatically belongs to the company, even if you do it on the weekends. That doesn't sound unacceptable to me. It's not that I'm that strict about e.g. reading personal emails etc. on my work computer, but if it's some side hustle, be it for money or for fun, I think it's honest to take your personal machine for that.

Computers are just office equipment, just like pens.

If I gave you a pen and you wrote some story with it, then could I claim the rights to that story? I think not.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#29

Post by oytis »

amelius wrote: post #28
oytis wrote: post #26

> Anything you do with the company property, e.g., work computer, automatically belongs to the company, even if you do it on the weekends. That doesn't sound unacceptable to me. It's not that I'm that strict about e.g. reading personal emails etc. on my work computer, but if it's some side hustle, be it for money or for fun, I think it's honest to take your personal machine for that.

Computers are just office equipment, just like pens. If I gave you a pen and you wrote some story with it, then could I claim the rights to that story? I think not.

That's why they write it in contracts explicitly I guess?

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#30

Post by 7steps2much »

amelius wrote: post #28
oytis wrote: post #26

> Anything you do with the company property, e.g., work computer, automatically belongs to the company, even if you do it on the weekends. That doesn't sound unacceptable to me. It's not that I'm that strict about e.g. reading personal emails etc. on my work computer, but if it's some side hustle, be it for money or for fun, I think it's honest to take your personal machine for that.

Computers are just office equipment, just like pens. If I gave you a pen and you wrote some story with it, then could I claim the rights to that story? I think not.

If you make that pen available to me under these conditions? Sure.

If you "just give" me something without any conditions then no, you could definitely not claim that story. But if you make that pen, your property, available to me explicitly only for work and nothing else?

It's your property, not mine. I only have whatever rights you grant me to it.

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