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An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

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Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#651
post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure the whole reason why DoNotPay actually exists is because defending against parking tickets didn't actually require a strong defense. The tickets were flawed automation, and their formulaic nature justified and equally formulaic response, or something to that effect. Whether the LLM was actually going to output answers directly, or just be used to drive a behavior tree or something like that, is a question…

> Does anyone else have a better explanation for why there was such a visceral response? I can't speak for lawyers in general or what everyone's motivations would be, but my initial reaction was that it seemed like a somewhat unethical experiment. I assume the client would have agreed or represented themselves, but even there -- legal advice is tricky because it's advice -- it feels unethical to tell a person to rely…

When you're poor you have the choice between an AI that may work or you'll be defending yourself. Access to legal assistance is almost as unobtainable as a dentist these days.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Then maybe the judge gets upset and gives them the harshest punishment or contempt of court” That sounds like a horrible judge, maybe this AI can be used to sniff them out and get rid of them.

Judges would be absolutely right to punish lawyers or defendants that are bullshitting the court. They are wasting time and resources that would otherwise go towards cases where people are actually representing themselves in good faith.

And yet that never seems to happen when another Hollywood couple shows up. How much time and money was wasted on Johnny Depp?

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#653
post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the problem is that the defendant has a right to competent representation, and ineffective assistance of counsel fails to fulfill that right. (Your hypothetical includes a fine, so it isn't clear whether the offense in your hypothetical is one with, shall we say, enhanced sixth amendment protections under Gideon and progeny, or even one involving a criminal offense rather than a simple civil infraction, but...)…

Seems like the solution is clear then. If the judge gently corrects defense counsel and guides them towards competence, they can just do the same with AI. Then the company can use that data to improve it! Eventually it will be perfect with all the free labor from those judges. >Judge: that case does not exist. Ask it about this case instead >AI: I apologize for the mistake, that case is more applicable. blah blah bla…

Ehhh... the judge's patience for that kind of thing is not unlimited. At some point they're going to reopen the inquiry about counsel (there's also the issue that an AI probably can't be your counsel of record, since it hasn't passed the bar; more likely the court would view it as you representing yourself with the assistance of research software).

BREAK BREAK

My jurisdiction (the military justice system) is a bit of an oddball, but I generally (softly) disagree with your last paragraph.

In jurisdictions with good criminal justice systems, most cases don't take that long to review. Possession of marijuana case, the officer stopped you for a broken taillight, smelled or claimed to smell marijuana, asked you if it was okay if he takes a look. You said okay. He finds a tiny amount of a green leafy substance in a small plastic bag. He says, "Hey look, marijuana is not that big a deal but lots of this stuff is laced with other things. This is just marijuana, right?" and you respond "Yes, sir, just marijuana, I don't mess with any real drugs." Prosecution is offering a diversion deal with probation and no permanent criminal record.

The correct answer in that case is to take the deal. We are not going to win by arguing that Raich was wrongly decided or that the officer lied about smelling it (because we're probably talking state court, so Raich doesn't matter, and you consented to the search, so the pretext, even if it was pretextual, also doesn't matter). We also aren't going to win attacking the chain of evidence, because the drug lab results don't matter, because you admitted it's marijuana.

In that case, yes, I'm going to take all of about 4 minutes to strongly advise the client to take the deal.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#654
post #478

This company is either run by someone who doesn't understand the tech or is willfully fraudulent. ChatGPT and company are far from good enough to be entrusted with law. Having interacted extensively with modern LLMs, I absolutely know something like this would happen: > Defendant (as dictated by AI): The Supreme Court ruled in Johnson v. Smith in 1978... > Judge: There was no case Johnson v. Smith in 1978. LLMs hallu…

Pretty sure the whole reason why DoNotPay actually exists is because defending against parking tickets didn't actually require a strong defense. The tickets were flawed automation, and their formulaic nature justified and equally formulaic response, or something to that effect. Whether the LLM was actually going to output answers directly, or just be used to drive a behavior tree or something like that, is a question…

I think the reaction was driven by four things:

1) The legal profession tries to instill a sense of ethics into the lawyers they train, and what DoNotPay was proposing violated that ethics. I don't want to overyhype the legal profession, but many (maybe even most) lawyers really do want to do the right thing, which by their lights means clients get the best representation possible. Which an LLM currently is not, so you get a visceral reaction from people at what they see as discussion of/advocacy of unethical conduct.

2) As a practical matter, it was likely to yield very bad outcomes for all concerned, including professional and legal consequences. Bluntly, DoNotPay was proposing to do something illegal, it really could have resulted in jail time, and possible disbarrment for any lawyers who were involved. For good or ill, judges have immense power to control what goes on in their courtrooms, and the risk of a judge taking offense to this is high. And the higher profile the case (and DoNotPay was offering $1m for a lawyer who would repeat whatever the chatbot said in a Supreme Court case) the higher the stakes. That really could be a career ending mistake for a junior lawyer (plus, almost by definition, anything that reaches the Supreme Court is important; bad representation could throw the result, with potentially terrible consequences for the country).

3) This is not, by any means, the first attempt to try and automate or streamline the provision of basic legal services. And it's a field ripe for such things; simple stuff like many rental agreements, employment contracts, sueing in small claims court, divorce agreements, etc., etc. all seem like they should be able to be generated by filling out a form and pressing a button, not hiring a high priced professional to craft a bespoke document. But over and over, such attempts have failed badly, and lawyers are getting reflexively defensive to anything that looks like that, not because they threaten their jobs, but because they keep being so terrible.

4) And DoNotPay looks a lot like these previous failures. See, eg, https://www.techdirt.com/2023/01/24/the-worlds-first-robot-l... which makes them look less like some cutting edge AI lawyer that will put an army of paralegals out of work, and more like yet another shitty site trying to resell Mechanical Turk at an enormous markup. Now, maybe what they're showing to the public is entirely different than what they want to use in courtrooms, but...it doesn't build confidence.

In many ways I think this is analagous to self driving cars. There is scope for enormous gains here, it's probably inevitable eventually, and it will probably put a lot of delivery drivers, taxi drivers, and truck drivers out of a job when it finally arrives. But right now deciding to hook your new self driving AI up to an unmarked truck and do a secret test in an unnamed US city without warning anyone or getting any licenses or permits is unethical and illegal, and you'd expect a very negative reaction if you announce your plans on Twitter. Especially if your website offers some software that they claim can control an RC car, but when you try it, it keeps steering into walls.

> I assume the real reason it was shot down was out of fear that it would work well

The next lawyer (or AI expert!) I see who thinks it would work well will be the first. There's just an enormous mismatch between the requirements, what chatbots in general seem to be capable of right now, and what DoNotPay in specific seems to be capable of. (Again, see the the Tech Dirt link.)

And again, note that while there's a pretty strong argument that it should be faster, easier, and cheaper to create a rental agreement (or whatever), DoNotPay was making a big deal out of how they wanted to argue in front of the Supreme Court. DoNotPay doesn't seem like they're going to nail the "draft a rental agreement for cheap" any time soon, but maybe they (or someone else) can. But handing a Supreme Court case? Obviously not. Now you might argue (and one certainly hopes!) the whole Supreme Court thing was just an unserious PR stunt, but when a company is making undifferentiated claims that their tech can do something semi-plausible and something entirely impossible, it makes the entire thing look like a scam created by or aimed at people who just don't know any better. Not a good look!

In short: I think the negative reaction is very, very understandable.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#655
post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mate I'm not stupid. It was a proof of concept and even if the end result was going to be a spectacular failure, it doesn't exclude the fact that the bar associations are desperately trying to fight this tooth and nail. Learn to read between the lines, not everything is an IDE.

My point is you're ignoring the fact that the bar association has a distinct interest in having the courts run smoothly and making sure lawyers in court are competent. So it is highly in their interest for a courtroom to not become a mockery because of a chatbot. Not everything associations like the bar does is in bad faith or contrary to the public's interest.

This is fundamentally incorrect.

The court system's smoothness or lack thereof is the responsibility of the country's judiciary IE the government. The bar associations for each state in contrast:

-Licenses attorneys and regulates the profession and practice of law in their -respective states -Enforces Rules of Professional Conduct for attorneys -Disciplines attorneys who violate rules and laws -Administers the California Bar Exam -Advances access to justice -Promotes diversity and inclusion in the legal system

EG they're trade unions and they're going to become the luddites of the 21st century.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#656

Judge: How does the defendant plea? Defendant: ChatGPT is at capacity right now. Get notified when we're back. Write an acrostic poem about the status of ChatGPT. C: ChatGPT is currently down. H: Huge demand has caused the site to crash. A: All users will have to wait. T: Time is needed for the servers to catch up. G: Go grab a coffee and check back soon. P: Patience is key in this situation. T: Trust that the team i…

https://i2.wp.com/circalingua.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11...

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#657

This company is either run by someone who doesn't understand the tech or is willfully fraudulent. ChatGPT and company are far from good enough to be entrusted with law. Having interacted extensively with modern LLMs, I absolutely know something like this would happen: > Defendant (as dictated by AI): The Supreme Court ruled in Johnson v. Smith in 1978... > Judge: There was no case Johnson v. Smith in 1978. LLMs hallu…

I agree in many cases, except traffic court isn’t real court. It’s mostly procedural. Hell in my state, in many cases the judge is a person who wins an election and takes a 20 hour course, and prosecutions are conducted by police officers.

Lawyers like to wax about the interests of justice. Reality is for crap like this, it’s a revenue funnel where there’s a pecking order of people who get breaks. Some small fraction have an actual legal dispute of facts.

I’d argue that you could best serve the interests of justice by bringing the whole process online. You’d eliminate the “friends and family” discount and have a real tribunal process for cases that need it, instead of the cattle call and mockery that these courts are.

NYC actually does a decent job with this by outsourcing the whole thing to DMV and administrative law judges on a tight leash. It’s mostly justice by flowchart. That pushes bullshit down to the police.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#658

Good. Totally fine with trying to use AI to give legal advice, but it should be done with a lawyer’s license on the line. A company that explicitly disclaims being a law firm and states is not giving legal advice should also not get to tweet that they are “representing” someone in court. A good bar (pun intended) for the quality of the tech is if it is good enough that a licensed attorney trusts it to give legal advi…

No, bad. I may also disagree with some of the tactics DoNotPay used to represent themselves. But in a larger sense Lawyers cost money a lot of money. it's wonderful living in a time where the cost of filing suits is so low compared to defending against said suits. AI lawyers can help lower those barriers to entry. the court in question is fucking traffic court. please lower the barrier to entry for defense and allow…

None of your objections are contradictory to requiring a real lawyer put their license on the line to vouch for the AI. Structural engineering jobs require a licensed PE to sign off on all designs. That doesn't mean they have to do all the work themselves, just supervise enough and trust their delegates enough to be confident the job is being done correctly. Licensed Electricians are responsible for all the work under their permits. Registered Nurses are largely responsible for all the LPNs working under them. All of these arrangements save money, but still require someone licensed to take responsibility. There is no reason AI couldn't be used in the same manner and save even more money, if done properly.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#659
post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like case law? Eg: It’s why we call “Roe v Wade” as we do.

What’s the difference between “precedent” and “case law”? I had thought that when I said “Though I guess that’s maybe kind of the sort of thing that precedent is for?” that that covered things like citing “Roe v. Wade”.

I’m not a lawyer, I just play one on HN.

I thought precedent was a broader term that also covers accepted practices or processes.

Re: An AI lawyer was set to argue in court – real lawyers shut it down

#660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone else have a better explanation for why there was such a visceral response? I can't speak for lawyers in general or what everyone's motivations would be, but my initial reaction was that it seemed like a somewhat unethical experiment. I assume the client would have agreed or represented themselves, but even there -- legal advice is tricky because it's advice -- it feels unethical to tell a person to rely…

From what I've read recently, the legal profession is the one most at risk of adverse financial effects from AI. Not the court appearances nor the specialized work. But the run-of-the-mill boilerplate legal writing that is the bread and butter profit center of most first. You bet they are threatened and will push back. Now the question is this. If an AI is doing something illegal like practicing law, how does one san…

The AI is a tool, belonging to a person, thar is using that tool to sell advice.
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