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Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

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Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#201

Post by sbaiddn »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #37
wolverine876 wrote: post #29

This isn't a Mexican company; the person behind it is. > Luke Iseman, a serial inventor and the former director of hardware at Y Combinator ... he started tinkering with releasing sulfur dioxide particles into the atmosphere with balloons, raised venture capital to fund the startup, and brought on co-founder Andrew Song to manage sales. Why did they choose Mexico? They couldn't get away with it in the US, so it's ok…

> [...] experiments with the atmosephere of the people of Mexico? Yeah I'm not sure that's how the atmosphere works. Surely this stuff would diffuse and affect the atmosphere globally.

Eventually. Until then its cloud over Mexico.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#202

Post by sbaiddn »

If it's a priori known that it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission then it means that the penalties for breaking the law are too lenient.

How about the "move fast and break things" SV type bros go to jail for a bit and, after they serve their sentence, all's forgiven? Except the criminal record, of course. That stays.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#203

Post by BurningFrog »

will5421 wrote: post #192
HPsquared wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could make the same argument against medical care. "If we start healing the sick, people will stop taking care of their health". That's not even considering potential side effects of therapies, medicines, etc. Any action has a balance of good and bad, both directly and indirectly.

The difference is that geoengineering affects the commons. I don’t mind people doing things to their own bodies, I do mind them messing with my atmosphere.

Infectious disease epidemics certainly affects the commons.

Typically spreads through the atmosphere even.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#204

Post by ch4s3 »

will5421 wrote: post #192
HPsquared wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could make the same argument against medical care. "If we start healing the sick, people will stop taking care of their health". That's not even considering potential side effects of therapies, medicines, etc. Any action has a balance of good and bad, both directly and indirectly.

The difference is that geoengineering affects the commons. I don’t mind people doing things to their own bodies, I do mind them messing with my atmosphere.

Surely you could see a case where an unwell person coughs on you or around you being comparable, right?

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#205

Post by BurningFrog »

ibz wrote: post #123
HPsquared wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could make the same argument against medical care. "If we start healing the sick, people will stop taking care of their health". That's not even considering potential side effects of therapies, medicines, etc. Any action has a balance of good and bad, both directly and indirectly.

And that's essentially what has happened. We are sicker than ever because we have easy cures. The problem is that modern medicine works on the symptoms, not on root causes. So the more we "cure" symptoms, the more sick we become, overall.

By what specific measure are we sicker than ever?

Show your work.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#206

Post by dahart »

eloff wrote: post #169
marginalia_nu wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] experiments with the atmosephere of the people of Mexico? Yeah I'm not sure that's how the atmosphere works. Surely this stuff would diffuse and affect the atmosphere globally.

The plan was to release 10 to 500 grams of sulfur dioxide. I don’t think it would affect anything at all. The experiment seems of questionable value, but it doesn’t seem dangerous.

The question isn’t whether 3 balloons of 500 grams of sulphur dioxide is dangerous, the question is should rando startups be allowed to put toxic chemicals in our air. What if they decided their experiment of 1.5kb of sulphur dioxide was a success? What is the obvious next step? 1500kg, 1.5Mg? Ten more startups doing the same, realizing whoever gets there first will make money?

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#207

Post by eloff »

dahart wrote: post #206
eloff wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan was to release 10 to 500 grams of sulfur dioxide. I don’t think it would affect anything at all. The experiment seems of questionable value, but it doesn’t seem dangerous.

The question isn’t whether 3 balloons of 500 grams of sulphur dioxide is dangerous, the question is should rando startups be allowed to put toxic chemicals in our air. What if they decided their experiment of 1.5kb of sulphur dioxide was a success? What is the obvious next step? 1500kg, 1.5Mg? Ten more startups doing the same, realizing whoever gets there first will make money?

Sulfur dioxide is naturally occurring, released by volcanoes in massive amounts. In these kinds of qualities it’s pretty safe by comparison.

I think we’re being way too cautious when it comes to geoengineering, at a time when we should be aggressively testing hypotheses to get some actual options on the table.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#208

Post by snarf21 »

dubcanada wrote: post #79

I really don’t like the idea of solar geoengineering. If we start sending up sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere and it fixes the problem. What do you think we’re going to do? Stop caring about global warming entirely, and pump way more green house gases… why wouldn’t we? We can just fix it with more sulfur dioxide. Then you send up more and more and more. And eventually something breaks. Now for some reason a countri…

It is really a difficult ethical dilemma. Reminds me of "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." from Jurassic Park. I think we need to continue trying to experiment and see what we can do and what we can't. However, there needs to be full disclosure, transparency (before and after) plus safety precautions and controls.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#209

Post by hinkley »

wolverine876 wrote: post #29

This isn't a Mexican company; the person behind it is. > Luke Iseman, a serial inventor and the former director of hardware at Y Combinator ... he started tinkering with releasing sulfur dioxide particles into the atmosphere with balloons, raised venture capital to fund the startup, and brought on co-founder Andrew Song to manage sales. Why did they choose Mexico? They couldn't get away with it in the US, so it's ok…

See also Monsanto testing gene spliced corn, on a plateau, above landrace corn. Mexico takes its corn seriously, and cross breeding with patented corn would either be disastrous or force the Mexican government into voiding patent treaties.

I believe the Willamette Valley in Oregon, which grows most of the grass seed for NA, as well as exports, officially told GMO researchers that they could fuck right off.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#210

Post by BurningFrog »

wolverine876 wrote: post #29

This isn't a Mexican company; the person behind it is. > Luke Iseman, a serial inventor and the former director of hardware at Y Combinator ... he started tinkering with releasing sulfur dioxide particles into the atmosphere with balloons, raised venture capital to fund the startup, and brought on co-founder Andrew Song to manage sales. Why did they choose Mexico? They couldn't get away with it in the US, so it's ok…

The geoengineering goal here is to release the particles into the stratosphere, which is at 10-30 km altitude, and not generally breathed by the people on the ground.

Let's not pretend that releasing 500g of sulfur dioxide there has any impact on people on the ground.

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