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Japan has changed in important and visible ways

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Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#371

Post by toyg »

robjan wrote: post #367
toyg wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Japanese government, however, doesn't go around checking other countries' citizenship lists (nobody does). I know of several Japanese citizens who accrued other nationalities but never informed the japanese government. Obviously they'd be stripped of their JP rights if it emerged, but until then...

They don't check citizenship lists but you must show proof of renouncing the citizenship attached to the passport you used to enter the country.

I'd expect them to ask for this only to the non-Japanese-looking, or people who acquired citizenship after birth so might be in some particular database. I have a friend who goes back to Japan fairly regularly and afaik they were never asked as such when entering with her Japanese passport.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#372

Post by petodo »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #330
petodo wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Chinese is hard" -> 1.5B people figured it out. Yeah and at least 90% of them were immersed in it since birth at home. Learning mother language while growing is very different from learning foreign language as adult. > Can't understate how hardcore it is. No, it isn't for kids, my kids are trilingual without any issues and much effort, kids are like sponges absorbing new information/languages easily, if you start…

> at least 90% of them were immersed in it since birth at home Bullshit... Maybe at best half of Chinese have Mandarin as a home language - of which half again speak Xinan Mandarin at home which is barely intelligible to a Standard Mandarin (Beifanghua) speaker. So the majority of Chinese learned Mandarin as a second language. And obviously the writing and ideograms is something that every one of them had to painstak…

Mandarin is language taught in Chinese kindergartens/schools regardless of province, so yes while their parents may speak different dialect at home, they learn it from very early age.

And you know very well I meant that 90% of those Chinese language speakers are ethnic Chinese and not foreigners. So congrats you won Nitpicker of the month prize!

> I know plenty of people in Singapore and Taiwan who wouldn't even bother to make fun of your ignorance...

1. Maybe you should check on official name of "Taiwan". 2. I am talking to non-native Chinese speaker (not you), not sure how does that apply to ethnical Chinese wherever they live, whether it's Singapore, Taiwan or US. Even the person I addressed my message to agrees with me, so congrats once again on completely pointless nitpicking.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#373

Post by Pelayu »

makeitdouble wrote: post #243
0xmarcin wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you in principle. In practice English is often all you need if you live in a big city. When I look at my country (Poland), I can see that a person can live in Warsaw (capital city) or any of the biggest 5 cities without knowing any Polish. Even having an appointment with english speaking doctor is not a problem. OTOH when you adventure outside of big cities you suddenly find yourself in a land where nobo…

You’re right that one might only need English to live in a given country. But then how much insight has that person into how other people think (they can’t hold a conversation with the vast majority of non english speaking people), or access to local news and studies... I think many Spanish speaking countries are in the same boat: not speaking the local language means you end up in a foreign friendly bubble with limi…

As someone who moved to Spain I would not say that you can get by with only English. Outside of tourism barely anyone speaks it really.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#374

Post by lostlogin »

wellanyway wrote: post #364
epups wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is not a a lone entity as well. It exists in a concert of nations. It buys and sells products from elsewhere. If you showed how modern Tokyo looks like to a Japanese from only 100 years ago, they would have a breakdown. Meanwhile, to the average Westerner, Tokyo is perfectly understandable, although of course unique. Let's just take one example. John von Neumann - a gasp immigrant - may have more to do with how…

You are not seriously comparing yourself to Neumann, are you?

I can’t see how you get that impression from the comment? Can you explain to me?

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#375

Post by petodo »

anthk wrote: post #347
petodo wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean it's quite obvious I am not native English speaker and I don't bother to perfect my language. > you need to understand that you had the time, resources and intelligence to learn it to a very proficient degree. English is taught on this level for decades already, so it would be odd if you were in productive age and didn't experience it. > The parents you're calling obese and ignorant, they might be a bit like y…

Except for corporations, tech related jobs, science and academia, high range politics and tourism, English is useless for the 90% of Europe.

Yeah because nobody listens to American music and watch American TV shows/movies to start with. I find it much more enjoyable when you can actually understand what they say.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#376

Post by petodo »

anthk wrote: post #350
petodo wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly only place where you need to speak local language is communication with gov officials That's what I wrote. But how often you deal with gov officials and various forms, on average once or twice a year? Is it worth learning whole new language to fill bunch of forms, which can be filled with help of friend within few minutes? Btw. officials are not allowed LEGALLY communicate with you in other than official l…

>which can be filled with help of friend within few minutes? Good luck with Spanish and French tax-related forms. In case of Spain, the documents are full of legalese jargon not even a native can grasp it at 100% without a gov website in an aside tab reading twice or trice the legal terms.

> Good luck with Spanish and French tax-related forms. In case of Spain, the documents are full of legalese jargon not even a native can grasp it at 100% without a gov website in an aside tab reading twice or trice the legal terms.

So you say one more reason not even bother trying to learn language for this reason, since you stand no chance if even native speaker can't understand it.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#377

Post by petodo »

lmm wrote: post #340
petodo wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I spent about half my year in Japan and half my year in Sweden and I speak both languages. Yeah, I really doubt that you can move to Japan with zero Japanese and in half year learn enough to hold normal conversation and be able to read/write Japanese, all that while working full time and not being immersed every day in Japanese language course.

> Yeah, I really doubt that you can move to Japan with zero Japanese and in half year learn enough to hold normal conversation and be able to read/write Japanese, all that while working full time and not being immersed every day in Japanese language course. If you're working full time in Japanese you could absolutely get conversational Japanese within half a year. Indeed I suspect that's the most practical way.

> If you're working full time in Japanese you could absolutely get conversational Japanese within half a year.

I fail to imagine scenario where Japanese company hire non-japanese speaker who will then be working full time in Japanese language to learn it.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#378

Post by asimpletune »

notch656c wrote: post #271
asimpletune wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the problems is that many people know about this child super power and then give up. OTH, I live in Italy which is full of adult African immigrants, and they all speak Italian. The fact is any adult can learn any language, they just either don’t have to or don’t want to. I’m not saying it’s easy or it’s the best decision for every situation, but it’s definitely possible. This is true even more so if it…

Is there any survival bias here? I don't want to be too presumptuous here but my understanding is there are a lot of desperate broke African immigrants finding their way into Italy. In such a situation you would be forced to rapidly acquire the language to survive, move on somewhere else, or possibly resort to crime because you are unable to communicate to secure a job (which rapidly leads to expulsion from the count…

> Is there any survival bias here?

Probably, but I don't think it challenges the legitimacy of the original point at all.

> Comparatively if white American hacker guy shows up flush with tech cash [...] not much chance I'm going to find myself on police radar or starve not learning the language

True, but you might not have a very good time.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#379

Post by tkgally »

toyg wrote: post #371
robjan wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't check citizenship lists but you must show proof of renouncing the citizenship attached to the passport you used to enter the country.

I'd expect them to ask for this only to the non-Japanese-looking, or people who acquired citizenship after birth so might be in some particular database. I have a friend who goes back to Japan fairly regularly and afaik they were never asked as such when entering with her Japanese passport.

I heard of an interesting case. A red-haired friend of mine who was born in Russia and, after living in Japan for many years, took Japanese citizenship was detained and questioned when trying to enter Canada on her Japanese passport. The Canadian immigration authorities were suspicious because she didn't look Japanese to them.

She said that she has never had any trouble entering Japan on her Japanese passport.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#380

Post by insane_dreamer »

sho_hn wrote: post #109
hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

But (I'm assuming) they're not journalists whose _job_ it is to _understand_ and report on events in Germany. So I think the OP's critique is valid in that context.

Edit: Also, you can get by perfectly without knowing the local language in some cities on the continent, such as Berlin (Stockholm, Copenhagen, Oslo would be others). That is not true of Tokyo unless you're staying in an expat bubble. I spent 6 years in Beijing, and you had the expats who didn't know Chinese and all lived in one section of the city where you could get by on English alone, but that section most definitely did not represent the rest of China or provide a deep understanding of the country and its people.

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