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Nostr: Notes and Other Stuff Transmitted by Relays

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Re: Nostr: Notes and Other Stuff Transmitted by Relays

#31

Post by legutierr »

gigatexal wrote: post #22

I don't understand Nostr's comments on trying to be deplatform-proof. On Mastodon, for example, if you get kicked off a node just spin up your own node. If nobody wants to hear you spewing your stuff then you'll soon be screaming into the void but what you post will still be viewable on the web and to those that subscribe to you. So I don't get what Nostr is trying to do.

The issue with Mastodon is that your network ID is tied to the domain of the server you are connecting to. If you get kicked off of that server you can move to another one, but you effectively have to create a new account. You loose all your followers, etc.

Nostr fixes those problems. You can never lose your ID because it’s derived from your public key. You can be blocked from a relay, but it doesn’t matter because you can just switch to another one, and you are always connecting to multiple at the same time anyway. Following is managed on the client side, so it cannot be manipulated or disrupted.

Re: Nostr: Notes and Other Stuff Transmitted by Relays

#32

Post by Semaphor »

drexlspivey wrote: post #21
nine_k wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd appreciate a bit more detailed answer. If the problem that Nostr solves is, say, posting NYT headlines, pub crawl reports, or cute cat pictures, it's fine, but most centralized tools are also fine. If the problem which Nostr is trying to solve is being censorship-resistant and allow for dissemination of information which is actively being suppressed, relay safety considerations become important. Less safety means…

You are going to post illegal stuff (signed by you) then somehow convince someone to raid my server in the hopes of that illegal thing being on my hard disk. Relays don’t have to store any message on disk, they relay stuff real time over websockets. Even if you store messages you can trivially wipe them every 24h? Then you are going to convince a judge that the thing on my disk belongs to me, because judges are appar…

But your server was distributing the illegal thing. It doesn’t matter, that it might not be there anymore, here in Germany there is a decent chance of getting a police visit and possibly getting your hardware impounded.

This is also the case for tor exit nodes, which is why those here are all hosted by organizations with lawyers.

As you distribute the content here, unlike with tor, you would essentially act as a user generated content provider and would have to take steps to prevent the abuse from occurring again… probably after an involved court case.

This is not like "every server" because not every server distributes what anyone publishes to it.

Though a lot of that might not be an issue in jurisdictions with saner laws, I don’t know specifics.

Re: Nostr: Notes and Other Stuff Transmitted by Relays

#33

Post by nine_k »

drexlspivey wrote: post #21
nine_k wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd appreciate a bit more detailed answer. If the problem that Nostr solves is, say, posting NYT headlines, pub crawl reports, or cute cat pictures, it's fine, but most centralized tools are also fine. If the problem which Nostr is trying to solve is being censorship-resistant and allow for dissemination of information which is actively being suppressed, relay safety considerations become important. Less safety means…

You are going to post illegal stuff (signed by you) then somehow convince someone to raid my server in the hopes of that illegal thing being on my hard disk. Relays don’t have to store any message on disk, they relay stuff real time over websockets. Even if you store messages you can trivially wipe them every 24h? Then you are going to convince a judge that the thing on my disk belongs to me, because judges are appar…

> signed by you

Signed by a private key which has no connection to my legal identity, and which can be generated in a split second. Signatures give strong pseudonymity.

> Relays don’t have to store any message on disk

This is a good idea, as long as messages are relatively few, which may be hundreds of thousands if they are short. There's no promise of availability, so an infrequent reboot is free to erase them.

> Then you are going to convince a judge that the thing on my disk belongs to me

I'm afraid it can be the other way around, if the material is sensitive enough. You'd have to explain to the judge how it ended up on your computer.

> every server in the world has this vulnerability

No, only a server that allows users to upload UGC without requiring enough background information to let the law enforcement find out their real identities if need be. Should be an adequate explanation to the judge in a civilized country where governmental censorship is not a thing.

Re: Nostr: Notes and Other Stuff Transmitted by Relays

#34

Post by BudweiserZero »

nine_k wrote: post #9

The biggest problem I see here is forwarding someone else's unknown and unencrypted content. Imagine you're running a relay on your machine, and somebody posts some CSAM, or stolen CC data, or hate speech, etc through your relay. Unlike an email client, your relay actually makes that message available to anyone. Unlike an email relay, you are not forwarding the message to someone else like a dumb pipe; there's no fin…

This all depends who colonizes the space first. I have a rule, don't hang out in bad neighborhoods, this extends to social media, decentralized or not.

For example; certain nodes on Secure Scuttlebutt have been known to push porn, and this gets replicated onto your store. That node was traced, and blocked by many on the sphere.

The majority on ssb were against that.

Now, a social network populated with crypto bros? Nah... pass.

Re: Nostr: Notes and Other Stuff Transmitted by Relays

#35

Post by nine_k »

nunobrito wrote: post #29
nine_k wrote: post #9

The biggest problem I see here is forwarding someone else's unknown and unencrypted content. Imagine you're running a relay on your machine, and somebody posts some CSAM, or stolen CC data, or hate speech, etc through your relay. Unlike an email client, your relay actually makes that message available to anyone. Unlike an email relay, you are not forwarding the message to someone else like a dumb pipe; there's no fin…

> Even though the message is signed, you can't reasonably prove that you do not possess the private key used to sign it, or have not possessed. That is an assumption that you made and strikes as FUD. An equally valid assumption is that nobody can reasonably prove that the person has the private key used for signing the files. Assuming the stated nature of relays and their intended purpose, there is more ground to ass…

> without reasonable way to inspect the contents of encrypted data.

This would be entirely correct were the data encrypted %)

The data are signed, but otherwise plaintext.

For reference, kids in the US got arrested for possessing nude pictures of themselves on their phones [1], because mere possession of a nude picture of an underage person is restricted by law. Talk about who are you going to convince that some shady stuff just happened to pass your server.

[1]: https://www.cnet.com/culture/teen-arrested-for-having-nude-p...

Re: Nostr: Notes and Other Stuff Transmitted by Relays

#36

Post by sph »

nine_k wrote: post #9

The biggest problem I see here is forwarding someone else's unknown and unencrypted content. Imagine you're running a relay on your machine, and somebody posts some CSAM, or stolen CC data, or hate speech, etc through your relay. Unlike an email client, your relay actually makes that message available to anyone. Unlike an email relay, you are not forwarding the message to someone else like a dumb pipe; there's no fin…

> Imagine you're running a relay on your machine, and somebody posts some CSAM, or stolen CC data, or hate speech, etc through your relay.

Relays can be authenticated. If you don't want your relay to accept data from anyone, don't leave it open. Same with any other Internet protocol.

Also, per the spec or convention, relays SHALL NOT talk to each other. Each relay is a separate island, but the protocol permits and recommends clients to publish on multiple relays. This is the basis of their censorship-resistance.

See also my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34530876

Re: Nostr: Notes and Other Stuff Transmitted by Relays

#37

Post by BudweiserZero »

nine_k wrote: post #15
drexlspivey wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'd appreciate a bit more detailed answer. If the problem that Nostr solves is, say, posting NYT headlines, pub crawl reports, or cute cat pictures, it's fine, but most centralized tools are also fine. If the problem which Nostr is trying to solve is being censorship-resistant and allow for dissemination of information which is actively being suppressed, relay safety considerations become important. Less safety means…

> If the problem that Nostr solves is, say, posting NYT headlines, pub crawl reports, or cute cat pictures, it's fine, but most centralized tools are also fine.

This sentiment is what's missing in the decentralized space. There are so many centralized spaces that you can use to communicate, and that censorship-resistant is a non-feature.

Re: Nostr: Notes and Other Stuff Transmitted by Relays

#38

Post by sph »

gigatexal wrote: post #22

I don't understand Nostr's comments on trying to be deplatform-proof. On Mastodon, for example, if you get kicked off a node just spin up your own node. If nobody wants to hear you spewing your stuff then you'll soon be screaming into the void but what you post will still be viewable on the web and to those that subscribe to you. So I don't get what Nostr is trying to do.

You have one Mastodon server you can post to (for that account).

You can post on as many NOSTR relays as you want. Get banned on one, you are still publishing on the others.

You can also, along with your messages, suggest to "subscribers" your preferred relays, so people that really want to follow you as you get banned all over the net always know the best place to reach you. This process of course would be automated by the clients.

Re: Nostr: Notes and Other Stuff Transmitted by Relays

#40

Post by BudweiserZero »

legutierr wrote: post #31
gigatexal wrote: post #22

I don't understand Nostr's comments on trying to be deplatform-proof. On Mastodon, for example, if you get kicked off a node just spin up your own node. If nobody wants to hear you spewing your stuff then you'll soon be screaming into the void but what you post will still be viewable on the web and to those that subscribe to you. So I don't get what Nostr is trying to do.

The issue with Mastodon is that your network ID is tied to the domain of the server you are connecting to. If you get kicked off of that server you can move to another one, but you effectively have to create a new account. You loose all your followers, etc. Nostr fixes those problems. You can never lose your ID because it’s derived from your public key. You can be blocked from a relay, but it doesn’t matter because y…

> If you get kicked off of that server you can move to another one, but you effectively have to create a new account. You loose all your followers, etc

Sure that's not a feature?

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