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Japan has changed in important and visible ways

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Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#321

Post by tsukikage »

petodo wrote: post #315
tsukikage wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's one thing to see everywhere words you can memorize when seeing it every single day in shops and online and very different thing when you see just bunch of strokes. They become much, much easier to grasp once you notice they're nearly all composed of the same hundred or so radicals and you can break them down and memorise them that way. > and honestly I was not really interested in people who don't learn at lea…

> That may be the real issue here. Mandarin has nearly as many speakers as English. Completely different league, English has by magnitude more speakers than Chinese. > Why should anyone be interested in people who don't "learn at least" Mandarin? Because not learning any foreign language is quite sign of ignorant character, while English is foreign language in most of the world and most of the world English speakers…

> Completely different league, English has by magnitude more speakers than Chinese.

That's an incredible claim. Got a reference for it? Wikipedia reckons 1.5bn English vs 1.1 bn Chinese.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#322

Post by genericlogic »

bradknowles wrote: post #289
triyambakam wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a linguist, the evidence is simply that your wife (or whoever) simply did not get enough exposure to language she understood, at the level she was at. Unless someone has a true learning disability, the only way one doesn't learn the language is because they weren't able to get the right input. And I say that without any blame - for whatever reason it was, that is the cause.

My wife did much better than I did, even though she never became fully fluent. I will agree that I didn't go to a full immersion language school. But we did arrange for multiple tutors, some on our own dime and some paid for by her employer or mine. And we interacted with the people in our neighborhood on a daily basis. I found that those who were Flemish speakers would actively prefer to practice their English with…

This reminds me of a recent experience of mine. I was raised bilingual Greek and English (English is my primary language). For my entire life I heard both of these languages and use them both the same. What I had never heard, until recently, was someone who learned Greek as an adult. I was so excited to speak to them because it was something completely new to me.

When they began speaking (Greek) it was like my brain shorted out. I was so excited for them but it took active mental effort to translate what they were saying. I began speaking to them in English and I nearly couldn't force myself to speak Greek.

This was not elitism or snobbery, it was like my brain decided the path of least resistance was English and I used it automatically. Very strange experience.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#323

Post by meowfly »

tsukikage wrote: post #295
petodo wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you lived in country with completely different language with characters instead of simple It's one thing to see everywhere words you can memorize when seeing it every single day in shops and online and very different thing when you see just bunch of strokes. I lived in China for 5+ years and didn't learn the language because the characters are huge barrier. In a few weeks with Duolingo I learned more Spanish wit…

> It's one thing to see everywhere words you can memorize when seeing it every single day in shops and online and very different thing when you see just bunch of strokes. They become much, much easier to grasp once you notice they're nearly all composed of the same hundred or so radicals and you can break them down and memorise them that way. > and honestly I was not really interested in people who don't learn at lea…

Going to China for that long and not trying to learn Mandarin is a misstep. Chinese is spoken by a lot of people, but spoken fluency isn't that high. Moreover, outside of the major cities, you will meet very few English speakers.

Where I lived, Shanghai, there was a western community that essentially interacted with each other in their enclaves and never developed any meaningful relationships outside maybe dating someone who was Chinese. In Shanghai at least you can get along just fine without learning the language, but you will miss out on so much because most people around you can't hold conversations in English.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#324

Post by mrintegrity »

bogantech wrote: post #105
rullelito wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. You haven't been to Sweden then.

Idk why this was downvoted? There's not much pressure to learn Swedish because everyone here is fluent in English. While doing my Swedish language course I met people that had lived here for 20 years and never learnt it

Not only is there not much pressure, it's actually more difficult as Swedes are generally happy to speak English and will often switch as soon as your accent gives you away as a foreigner. After 15 years living here I am now fluent, it was a challenge though!

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#325

Post by Nathanba »

eloisant wrote: post #316
sho_hn wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

I don't think we should shame people for not speaking the language of the country they live in, however it's important to stress that you're really missing out when you don't speak the local language. It will vary a lot by countries, because in some of them (i.e. northern european countries) everyone will be able to speak English so not only you have less incentive to learn the local language but it will be very diff…

I think we should shame people for that: A nation is like a big family. You're essentially saying that you don't think that you should be able to talk to your own family in their language.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#326

Post by ubercore »

sho_hn wrote: post #109
hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

I'm an American living in Norway, in a larger city (for Norway). It's hard to learn, because when I try my burgeoning Norwegian, they immediately switch to English. I don't blame them at all, but I see how someone speaking English could not learn Norwegian in 10 years and be very happy.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#327

Post by miroljub »

ubercore wrote: post #326
sho_hn wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

I'm an American living in Norway, in a larger city (for Norway). It's hard to learn, because when I try my burgeoning Norwegian, they immediately switch to English. I don't blame them at all, but I see how someone speaking English could not learn Norwegian in 10 years and be very happy.

That's because you are visibly American. If you looked more like a southerner, you'd have much better, they wouldn't switch to English. On the other hand, they wouldn't even speak a Norwegian to you.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#328

Post by lmm »

midoridensha wrote: post #88
lmm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't renounce your old citizenship before gaining new citizenship. Often you can and in those cases Japan generally requires you to. However it would depend on the citizenship in question.

Huh? Renouncing first would make you stateless, which is against UN resolutions. I've never heard anything like this about Japan's naturalization process, just that you're required to renounce after acquiring it (and if you don't and they find out, they'll revoke your citizenship).

Many countries (including mine) allow you to renounce your citizenship but then void that renunciation if you don't acquire a new citizenship within 90 days, so as to prevent the risk of (long-term) statelessness.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#329

Post by rayiner »

sho_hn wrote: post #109
hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

There is a good reason: not being antisocial to the people in the country you are visiting. Most Germans speak English, sure, but dealing with someone that doesn’t speak your native language is incrementally harder and your friend is externalizing that cost onto everyone he interacts with.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#330

Post by MagnumOpus »

petodo wrote: post #207
djtango wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I find a language hard to learn, I always remind myself that the vast majority of every population can speak their own language. "Chinese is hard" -> 1.5B people figured it out. More recently, on observing my niece and nephew, something we take for granted is how exhausting it is being a child. You are learning 247 non stop for best part of 2 decades. Can't understate how hardcore it is. No wonder why we adu…

> "Chinese is hard" -> 1.5B people figured it out. Yeah and at least 90% of them were immersed in it since birth at home. Learning mother language while growing is very different from learning foreign language as adult. > Can't understate how hardcore it is. No, it isn't for kids, my kids are trilingual without any issues and much effort, kids are like sponges absorbing new information/languages easily, if you start…

> at least 90% of them were immersed in it since birth at home

Bullshit... Maybe at best half of Chinese have Mandarin as a home language - of which half again speak Xinan Mandarin at home which is barely intelligible to a Standard Mandarin (Beifanghua) speaker. So the majority of Chinese learned Mandarin as a second language.

And obviously the writing and ideograms is something that every one of them had to painstakingly memorise over 15 years of schooling...

> Btw. you won't be fluent in Chinese without living in China

I know plenty of people in Singapore and Taiwan who wouldn't even bother to make fun of your ignorance...

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