Japan has changed in important and visible ways • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#291

Post by petodo » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 10:08 AM UTC

varnaud wrote: post #279

petodo wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events... And why would I wanna speak with baker, cab driver, publi…

The way you write feels like English isn't your first language. Sorry if I'm wrong, French is my native language. But in case you had to learn English, you need to understand that you had the time, resources and intelligence to learn it to a very proficient degree. This isn't true for everyone. The parents you're calling obese and ignorant, they might be a bit like you in that they don't want to use their time to lea…

I mean it's quite obvious I am not native English speaker and I don't bother to perfect my language.

> you need to understand that you had the time, resources and intelligence to learn it to a very proficient degree.

English is taught on this level for decades already, so it would be odd if you were in productive age and didn't experience it.

> The parents you're calling obese and ignorant, they might be a bit like you in that they don't want to use their time to learn something they don't really have to and rather spend time with their children.

Nothing wrong with that, same as I find nothing wrong with me for not intending talk to them, while commenter I'm responding to thinks we should talk to each other.

> Also in many countries, teachers and hospital workers, amongst other professions, are government workers. You calling them usually lazy people is insulting and ignorant.

Gov official is someone working directly for gov, meaning (gov) bureaucrat. Teachers, hospital workers I would call state workers, certainly not gov "officials", but maybe my understanding in English is wrong.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#292

Post by spaceman_2020 » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 10:09 AM UTC

0xmarcin wrote: post #153

hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

I agree with you in principle. In practice English is often all you need if you live in a big city. When I look at my country (Poland), I can see that a person can live in Warsaw (capital city) or any of the biggest 5 cities without knowing any Polish. Even having an appointment with english speaking doctor is not a problem. OTOH when you adventure outside of big cities you suddenly find yourself in a land where nobo…

English language is really a superpower. I speak a little Spanish and was chatting up with an Argentine couple in Thailand. They don't speak much English and were telling me stories of being stuck and lost and swindled while traveling abroad.

I've managed to travel to 30+ countries and never felt out of place because most places will somehow accommodate English speakers.

The only place I felt a little bit of language hostility was in Russia. Moscow was probably the least English-friendly major city I've ever been to - but that makes sense from a historical perspective.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#293

Post by thablackbull » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 10:11 AM UTC

petodo wrote: post #173

noch wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. What an odd mindset. Anecdotally, prior generations of Europeans (and expatriates) valued being multilingual. Having a working knowledge of German, Italian, French, English was fun, valuable, and normal especially when doing business in diverse countries and with d…

> Having a working knowledge of German, Italian, French, English was fun, valuable, and normal especially when doing business in diverse countries and with diverse peoples. That's nice with all these very similar languages using latin alphabet and now try it with Chinese characters and tones in China or at least kanji/hiragana without tones in Japan. Characters are huge barrier when learning the language, because you…

> I really wish Chinese switched completely to pinyin

Perhaps Americans would take the first step and switch from imperial to metric, then we can discuss and tell everyone what to do.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#294

Post by bigpeopleareold » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 10:12 AM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #190

hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

You should definitely get off your high horse a bit, world is a bit bigger than your opinions. There are millions of very smart high earning expats all over the world that see no reason to learn local language well if its ie too hard for them, they practically never use it (ie at work its english, at home its XYZ and for basic chit chat you get by with few hundreds of basic words), or simply don't have time to learn…

I only hope those expats are ready to pick up and move either back home or to another country because they can't find a job in English in their country. They might be fine though. However, I'm being serious and am not joking, because it was my own concern. I am probably ok though as a software developer, maybe, but the thought of picking up and leaving at this point is really tough. At the very least, securing my assets and collected pension is well worth the time I am putting in to learning a language. Hey - you even get brownie points when you can mutter something in the local language.

As an example, here in Norway, I have read of expats, specifically British expats, being denied various earned benefits because their residency permits have expired and/or they decided to return back to where they came from. The collected pensions were not afforded to them. IANAL definitely, so if this is ok or not in terms of EEA rulings is maybe another story, but this, even being pre-Brexit, was still worrisome to me. At the time, years ago, I was not a citizen here nor a citizen of the EU/EEA, so tying my wife and my benefits' fates to whatever employment we were able to attain is a bit concerning. Not being explicitly tied to employment and maintaining the full rights of every other citizen by being one myself is a relief. Of course, one of the requirements was reaching a certain language level (it was A2 when I got it, which I aimed for specifically, but the government has since decided to push it up to B1.)

Also, I don't have children, but I have had co-workers who do, who sought to learn enough to be involved their children's education and also really can't afford expensive international schools. I mean, we all make salaries that are average to our profession, citizens and non-citizens alike; I mean, if you want your children to only speak English, work in a English-speaking country.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#295

Post by tsukikage » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 10:13 AM UTC

petodo wrote: post #139

hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

Have you lived in country with completely different language with characters instead of simple It's one thing to see everywhere words you can memorize when seeing it every single day in shops and online and very different thing when you see just bunch of strokes. I lived in China for 5+ years and didn't learn the language because the characters are huge barrier. In a few weeks with Duolingo I learned more Spanish wit…

> It's one thing to see everywhere words you can memorize when seeing it every single day in shops and online and very different thing when you see just bunch of strokes.

They become much, much easier to grasp once you notice they're nearly all composed of the same hundred or so radicals and you can break them down and memorise them that way.

> and honestly I was not really interested in people who don't learn at least English

That may be the real issue here. Mandarin has nearly as many speakers as English. Why should anyone be interested in people who don't "learn at least" Mandarin?

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#296

Post by triyambakam » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 10:15 AM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #157

hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. How many languages do you know? I live in a country with 11 official languages; please come stay for half a decade.

And no one is expecting you to know all 11. But I'm sure on average most people know more than ONE. which country anyways, India?

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#297

Post by mchaver » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 10:15 AM UTC

amrocha wrote: post #261

petodo wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me introduce you to wild idea that language is just tool and has nothing to do really with the country/culture. I may loved China (at least first few years) where I lived for years without loving their politicians and learning language (beyond few useful phrase and numbers), same goes actually for many countries I travelled. My kid is citizen of country A, was born in country B and lives in country C speaking lan…

That idea is insane, it's well established that language shapes thought. Ask any multilingual person and they'll tell you their personality changes from language to language. I'm glad your kid speaks a bunch of languages, but if they don't learn A they'll never be able to fully culturally connect with country A either.

> it's well established that language shapes thought

I don't think is necessarily true. There is empirical evidence for linguistic relativity, but my intuition is this is often culture getting encoded in the language and then passed on. However, the way the language is used can change.

Most of the world's languages are spoken by a limited number of cultural groups, so if you analyze language L only spoken by group G, then you will find the way people of G use L is quite similar.

But if you look at languages with native speakers of diverse culture backgrounds, you will find the way they use the same language is quite different and often a reflection of their culture, not the other way. Like the way native English speakers from Wyoming speak versus native English speakers from Dehli, or a native Spanish speaker from Bolivia versus one from Northern Spain.

> Ask any multilingual person and they'll tell you their personality changes from language to language

I experience this too to a mild degree. My intuition is that it is the context in which the languages are used.

> if they don't learn A they'll never be able to fully culturally connect with country A either.

That's true, but at the end of the day a parent has to make a decision. It is tough to juggle lots of languages with kids and have time to do other things. Many kids will reject home languages if they don't get to use it outside of a single parent.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#298

Post by FranzFerdiNaN » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 10:18 AM UTC

AdamN wrote: post #210

0xmarcin wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you in principle. In practice English is often all you need if you live in a big city. When I look at my country (Poland), I can see that a person can live in Warsaw (capital city) or any of the biggest 5 cities without knowing any Polish. Even having an appointment with english speaking doctor is not a problem. OTOH when you adventure outside of big cities you suddenly find yourself in a land where nobo…

I got my hair cut by a Greek barber in Copenhagen. He had been there for 12 years and didn't know any Danish. Somebody came in speaking Danish and he said "I'm sorry but I don't speak Danish" and the rest was in English. For many English speakers it's their third or fourth language and the value of Danish is pretty limited - even for a Copenhagen resident. Obviously, that Greek barber would probably love to speak Dan…

> but as an adult, even a decade of effort won't get him to the level any Danish person can speak English.

Children don't have any special ability to pick up languages, but they do have certain advantages: they aren't afraid to make mistakes, they are fully immersed in the language from the moment they wake up, they have no responsibilities like jobs and other adult stuff and they have people (parents, school, teachers, family) constantly talking to them at a level they can comprehend while gently pointing out their mistakes. If you put that barber in the same environment he will be fluent in no time.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#299

Post by johannes1234321 » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 10:20 AM UTC

hogepiyo wrote: post #124

sho_hn wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

I've lived in Germany myself (NRW). Idk, from my experience it's cool if you're in the young professional tech bubble but when you step outside of that it didn't feel good to me personally. Going out into smaller towns / cities to me at least it rapidly became evident that you're missing something. Maybe I'm old fashioned or something. I still think there's something to be said for learning the local language (and c'…

> I've lived in Germany myself (NRW). Idk, from my experience it's cool if you're in the young professional tech bubble

The GP talked about Berlin. Berlin is somewhat special as it attracts quite some foreigners. For me as a German-native it is sometimes weird if I go to a bar or something, outside tority, but "hip" areas and the bar staff only speaks limited to no German, so that the orders etc. have to be done in English.

There is quite a live you can life speaking only English. Of course once you leave the "hip" areas it becomes more limited.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#300

Post by FranzFerdiNaN » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 10:20 AM UTC

vasco wrote: post #111

hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

So if you live in 4 countries over four decades in your adult life you will learn 4 new languages? I don't think you must've lived more than one place abroad, or somewhere with good English. For example I speak 4 languages, understand another 2, but don't speak the language of the country I've lived in for the last 3.5 years, and I'm not even learning. At some point it's just absolutely not worth it and I'm just gonn…

> So if you live in 4 countries over four decades in your adult life you will learn 4 new languages?

Yes, unless you go out of your way to avoid learning the language and sticking to English as much as possible.